Do Climbers Really Need to Lift Weights? | Part 2

In the second half of this two-part series, Ollie Torr is joined by international coach Jesse Firestone, Lattice coach Jemma Powell, and elite climbers Will Bosi and Aidan Roberts to delve deeper into the nuances of strength and conditioning in climbing.

Jesse Firestone brings his expertise as a renowned U.S.-based climbing coach, known for his holistic approach to athlete development. Jemma Powell, a seasoned Lattice coach with over 25 years of climbing experience, shares insights from her work with climbers across various levels. Will Bosi and Aidan Roberts, both at the forefront of elite climbing, discuss how tailored strength and conditioning programs have influenced their performance and progression.

Key Topics Covered:

• The importance of individualised training programs for climbers.
• Addressing the specific needs of female, older, and younger athletes in strength and conditioning.
• Strategies for integrating strength training without compromising climbing technique.
• Managing fatigue and recovery to optimise performance.
• Real-world experiences from elite climbers on balancing training and climbing.

Join us as we explore these topics and more, providing valuable insights for climbers and coaches aiming to optimise performance through personalised strength and conditioning strategies.

Listen to Part 2 now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred platform.

The Lattice jingle is brought to you by Devin Dabney, music producer of the outdoor industry who also hosts the American Climbing Project.

Transcript

Lattice Host (00:16)
Welcome back to part two of the podcast where I discuss the use of strength conditioning with a focus on weightlifting for climbers. In part one, we had a chat with S&C coaches about how to use and structure weightlifting into a training schedule and climbing coach Dave Mason about what he does with his athletes, as well as speaking to Drew Ruana about his experience of using weights.

In this part too, we briefly talked to Will Bosi about his weightlifting experience and what he managed to lift when he got psyched on using weights, what Aidan Roberts has done in the past and what he's doing right now whilst he's in a performance outdoor phase. Then we talked to Jemma Powell, a coach colleague of mine at Lattice, who has loads of experience with S&C training with her clients and as an athlete herself. As a shorter athlete, she talks about the impact it's made on her climbing and

her health and enjoyment of the sport. And we briefly discussed the impact it has on muscle mass. Then lastly, we hear from Jesse Firestone about what he thinks about lifting and why it's so important to him. And I think this bit is really, really good for any of the athletes there who want to perform and enjoy this sport for a long period of time or throughout their lifetime. But to get it started, Will, I know you did loads of weightlifting before the Olympics. Are you still doing it now to support your climbing?

Will (01:37)
So yeah, I don't do any weight training. I did for a period and I thought it was really helpful and good, but not at the moment.

I don't

Lattice Host (01:43)
think you've kind of done a really cool thing as an athlete where you've gone through these natural cycles where you've done the right training at the right time, particularly like when you're younger with your fingers for example. And if I think what you've done really nicely with weightlifting is you did a really intense period of it where you've probably built up your tendon strength and your overall strength around your structures like your joints and your muscles. But then it's had its natural life cycle where you don't need to do it for quite a long time.

I reckon you'll be back to doing it in maybe like another year or two's time. I mean, you were so psyched on waits for a while. I remember you getting mega psyched about your bench and deadlift numbers, for example.

Will (02:26)
Yeah, I think the problem with weights as well is they're just, it's too exciting. Like I just don't want to end up where I get more sight than lifting weights at the garage than going climbing, you know?

Yeah, that's a good point actually. I was pretty good on the deadlift. I did what? 160 for sure. I think I did 170. So yeah, did 170kg deadlift.

back when was trying it and I remember on 180, I don't know if I can really show this in the camera frame, but I got it to about here where it felt like I probably could have like pushed it out but I also felt like I might lose my back. So I reckon my level was at 175 if I went full in.

Bench wasn't so good, but I'm just having a think, because that would make my deadlift almost like 300 times body weight, 300 times body weight, 300%. Because I was more like 61, 62 or 62 or 63 back then, I think. My bench, I did 75, I think, kg for one rep, which...

wood was absolute limit for sure. I'm real weak at bench now. I occasionally try it still. I don't ever go for like one rep, but even like 50 kilos, I'm like, this is hard work. And squat, I remember here with you spotting, I think I did 100, but I'm not sure how deep I actually went to be fair, but I had the problem though with squat where I found out my right leg is a centimeter shorter than my left leg.

And so I had to get like a little insole. Because without it, when I put the bar behind me, my back just like goes into sort of scoliosis and like really curves. That was super weird. Yeah, I've never had someone just be like, oh, your leg's shorter than the other. I was like, no, it's not. What are you talking about? But yeah, I actually lost that insole. So that's probably another reason I've not been doing weights to be fair. I was told I have to do front squats with the insole then.

So there's fun, fun, Bosi fact I've got a shorter

leg.

Lattice Host (04:31)
So Aiden, I know you've done loads of weightlifting in the past as we tended to do really specific training phases in the winter to build strength and then pretty much did the bare minimum throughout the outdoor season. How have you found this in the past and have things changed recently on your recent travels?

Aidan (04:50)
Yeah, it's a good point. I definitely think I had applied the kind of comp climbing mindset of like having a training season and a performance season and I'd applied that very much to outdoor climbing. And I think that did work really well in terms of like the training was quite different, but like it allowed me to like kind of have a little like reflection period at the end of a performance.

like phase and be like, okay, like in the next training phase, I can be really explicit about the things that I want to work on and like what I'm looking to do in the next performance phase. Something you never have the luxury of doing for comps because you just have to like get like a little bit better at everything or like improve in certain weaknesses. It feels in this scenario, I could like, I could like be like, okay, this is a really

Like really specific thing that is limiting me on this project that I'm really inspired by And I can make a significant improvement in this style if like I like put a load of energy into that and so it kind of like really cultivated and quite an analytical approach which I've really like I found I've really enjoyed and like the last couple of years have been curated by like

really ambitious projects, which I felt like I physically needed to develop to do. so like, think Arrival of the Birds, the one I did in spring in Switzerland was like a really, ⁓ interesting example where like, I kind of felt like there was loads of things about it that suited me really well. ⁓ and there were things, they were like kind of things that I hadn't so isolated specifically because it was rare that that was like the limiting factor for me to do them on boulders. Like,

like shoulder retraction, kind of really acutely flex fingers, and like kind of hip mobility and like kind of maintaining body tension throughout that. There were all things which like generally wouldn't like, didn't feel like the limiting factor is like kind of a style I really liked. And so always felt like it was adequate for the projects I had. And this was like one which I was like, okay. All these, all of these like factors, like suddenly like,

which are my strengths aren't strong enough and like I could like really isolate those and that was quite fun.

Ollie Torr (07:10)
yeah. I mean, one thing that stands out as well is probably being aware of you being like a full-time athlete is when even when you're like when you're going around the UK and stuff and you would still you go on a small family holiday and the drives between or when the weather's bad or on the boat, for example, you have like a I think what you said, like a minimum prerequisite of keeping things topped up, which is always really nice. Like I think.

I totally agree that, and I think this gets overlooked a lot, if you've got a good skill level to enjoy and achieve what you want to do, just climbing for a good period of time is great because you don't need that physical gain, like you don't need to be progressing. You can go in and just do that through climbing. And then the training and stuff, unless you just enjoy the structure.

Aidan (07:49)
Mm.

Ollie Torr (08:02)
you can like that's for when you're trying to make those gains. But the thing I think a lot of people miss, which is something that we've talked a lot about over the years, is that minimum prerequisite of doing density hangs for your fingers, doing a little bit of recruitment, doing some shoulder rotations, keeping up your mobility. And you've prioritized that really nicely and come up with routines and carved out portable fingerboards and everything to kind of make that work.

Aidan (08:23)
Mm.

Ollie Torr (08:33)
What's been some of those exercises that you've found that are staple all the time in terms of pre-season, in-season performance, sailing?

Aidan (08:45)
Yeah, no, it's a good question actually. And I think it's something which like is hard to prescribe specifically to someone. It requires a bit of one's own attunement to their own body and kind of understanding the way they climb and what is fatigued. And I think it's something that I've become quite good at is essentially like...

climbing and like doing my climbing and having like an understanding of my own body as to like what has fatigued and what has like met that like minimum requirement to like kind of maintain a skills a strength or like kind of like be like developing a strength like what is fatigued essentially and it has allowed me to like kind of consider and make an informed decision about like what additional things I do because like When I'm performing and like climbing outside a lot

It's very different. I'm not trying to like cook myself every day. But like I can like say if I'm working on a specific project, I can like kind of analyse if like, okay, the holds are actually really sharp. And so it feels really intense on the fingers, but the skin is my limiting factor here. My fingers actually haven't done that much. And like, yeah, I can do a fingerboard session or like maybe I'm doing something which is like really in my shoulders and like kind of like

it feels like that really fatigues. Generally I find that my recruitment in terms of like generating power through my lats can like dissipate for like relatively quickly if I'm like in a number of weeks, if I'm solely working on this kind of project. So then like I would do like some more explosive pull-ups or like kind of like I can like integrate them into like the tail end of my like projecting session. And...

So yeah, in terms of the specific exercises I do, I do quite like, I do a lot of like portable fingerboarding. And I'm usually, the things I guess I look out for quite specifically is I'm usually quite cautious about like the form of like the angles of my fingers. That feels like really relevant and sometimes overlooked. Like people just look at like the maximum amount of force they can put through a hold. And it is funny actually,

When I was like using a Tindeq on the boat journey, I realized that I've never just like I've never just seen the maximum amount I can pull and the reason I think that's the case is because the maximum amount that I can pull is in kind of like this chisel open grip Which Feels almost wholly irrelevant to the way I climb like I like never hold a hold in that position like pretty much ever

And so it feels like, it feels like, okay, I could try and get better at that, but like, it just doesn't feel relevant. Like it's still my strongest grip. Like even though I don't train it specifically, just mechanically people are stronger in this slightly open position. But I just know when I climb, even if I'm like on like slopey edges, my pinky is like marginally flexed. And like, it's just never like fully like an open crimp. So like, it just feels totally like.

irrelevant for me to like train in that way. And so it's usually something I'm quite careful about. I try and like really analyze what is like, what is kind of like useful. Yeah. And relevant. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess like I try and do that with other exercises as well and that kind of the mimic positions in some

Ollie Torr (12:12)
useful, applicable.

What

do you find that you're of obviously looking back on the climbing that you've been doing? And I think that's one thing that comes from a lot of self-awareness, which is really cool. And it's been cool seeing you develop in that way and having that self-awareness and messaging to me like, man, my lats are cocked or my fingers have been worked, but I feel like I'm getting a bit weaker and then making an exercise. But have you?

Aidan (12:43)
Yeah.

Ollie Torr (12:50)
something that I'm actually not sure about the answer to. Do you turn to body scans? it through, when you do a bit of stretching in the morning, you're like, ⁓ man, my back has been worked, or is it just like, it feels tired, but I know that move wasn't too bad. How do you figure that out?

Aidan (13:08)
Yeah,

I guess, ⁓ I definitely do body scans and often like, ⁓ generally, I think you do know this about me. Like I'm rarely concerned about not doing enough. ⁓ generally like my, like, ⁓ inclination has been to do more than is helpful than less is helpful. And so, yeah, yeah. So,

Ollie Torr (13:28)
Definitely.

Aidan (13:32)
so I think it's like, that's almost like,

being quite helpful to realise that and so I think like in the past I would just like maybe like experience some fatigue in a certain muscle group and like just be like thrash it anyway and just be like at the end of the session I'm gonna do all this conditioning and like I don't think it's necessarily so helpful to like feel really fatigued try and condition something that's been specifically tired and do it with worse form and like it feels like

I get like relatively diminishing returns. And I think part of it has just been acknowledging like the finite nature of energy as well. And just like the value in like kind of when something is fatigued enough, like it's fine.

Ollie Torr (14:16)
Yeah, you don't have to cook yourself every session.

Aidan (14:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. In like every muscle group, every session. And I think I have like, actually really come to terms with like the value of being rested in like specific muscle groups. so like, structuring my training week around like, rather than being like, okay, I'm going to do everything on this day and then like everything, but it's going to be a bit tired on the next day, like to just be like, okay, this is going to be like a pulling base session.

And then this one's going to be like, kind of like really shoulder based and like shoulder attraction and like kind of things like that. like separating that is out into days feels much more valuable to like get much higher quality sessions in. But coming back to your question, I think I do generally, there is an element of like kind of analysis of the climb I've done and be like, okay. Like that move is really tensiony and I'm using my shoulder loads like

And I'll be like, okay, like I might not specifically feel like really tired there because throughout this training phase, I've built a load of capacity in those muscle groups, but I can be like, instead I can be like, okay, like, well, I know I'm not using, like, I'm not generating loads of my lat in any of these positions. And so like, I can make an informed decision to be like, okay, that's probably something I can work on. And...

Because generally we have so many muscle groups that like I can find a fresh muscle to fatigue always if I want to. like, so like I just know the relevant ones which like kind of crop up and there's sometimes limitations for me and and the ones which are strong but sometimes complement my style more so. And so I kind of have like this collection of exercises and like kind of shoulder rotations or like retractions. I do them like

Ollie Torr (15:51)
Yeah, yeah.

Aidan (16:10)
kind of almost one-armed face pulls. I've been doing a lot with like a resistance band because it's a very portable setup. It's one exercise I really like doing. Kind of wide pull-ups or like kind of quite explosive pull-ups with my like kind of arms not like super bent. like kind of like...

Ollie Torr (16:27)
almost going into like a vertical lever as you push up, like push the bar away.

Aidan (16:31)
Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing. Almost like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, lati. Feels like one that feels quite relevant for me. And there's kind of like a few different, I'd say they're probably like some, they almost epitomize two quite contrasting styles and the things I've tried and maintain.

Ollie Torr (16:53)
Yeah, if you're always going for the fresh muscle, you'd be bench pressing every other day.

Aidan (16:57)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah, squatting and... It's not the easiest portable setup as well.

Ollie Torr (17:01)
Exactly.

No, no, exactly.

Yeah, whenever we've done, it's been quite good because over the last couple of seasons, you've had like contrasting project styles as well. So it's kind of finding that balance of leaning into the style you're good at, capitalizing on the strengths there and then also working the other bits, like the more open grip, the power, the kind of, yeah, working a bit of your chest and stuff. But like you say, when you're in, that's quite easy to do training phase whilst you're climbing.

Aidan (17:15)
Mm.

Mm.

Ollie Torr (17:37)
locally but then when you're away it's just about maintaining the good bits or the recruiting the applicable bits.

Aidan (17:42)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it can be quite complicated when you're spinning all these plates. So yeah, I wouldn't expect it. Yeah, simple is best. yeah. yeah. But there is definitely, I think a big theme of that is kind of felt like my own acknowledgement of finite energy definitely feels quite relevant.

Ollie Torr (17:54)
Simple is best.

Simple as best, simple as best.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's with someone who's got a good work capacity. you could just, I think that's not one thing we like, you see a lot with the comp climbers that want to perform outside. They are so into trying to do everything that they're really good up to like a level. But then...

rarely do, like some of them obviously do, but they don't kind of like peak specifically and that's because their energy is being spread rather than directed like you've done.

Aidan (18:41)
And that's something that I've definitely come to terms with since being an outdoor climber and understanding that there are specific climbs which motivate me or inspire me more. Like, it feels like I've genuinely accepted that I have strengths and limitations and like there are people who are going to be like, like there are going to be climbs which kind of just require a skill set that I don't possess and

If I had all of those skill sets, it would be at the cost of being as good at the ones which I've chosen kind of thing. As in, can't be great at everything and there'll be some climbs that will be really hard for me. But I've made that decision. I'm very content to struggle away at certain things for the of the energy that I've put into the skills I am good at.

Ollie Torr (19:34)
Welcome to the podcast, Jemma. To get us started, can you just give us a little introduction about who you are and what you do?

Jemma (19:42)
And so a brief summary of my life.

to date. So I was formerly a GB athlete and did a lot of comps for quite a long time and historically I've also done quite a lot of trad. Currently I'd say I split my time fairly evenly between boulder and sport climb and pretty motivated to push myself there. I'm a mum of two so currently balancing the kind of demands of youth

family and work and climbing and kind of negotiating the challenges surrounding that. I've been a coach for around eight years and have worked with Lattice for three of those and yeah really keen to support people in feeling strong and empowered with their climbing.

Ollie Torr (20:35)
Cool, thank you very much. So what kind of athletes are you typically working with now and who are the ones that maybe you feel like you make the biggest impact with?

Jemma (20:46)
So I work with quite a broad range of clients. So anything from people that have big walling aspirations. I work with a number of comp climbers and lots of parents who are keen to again negotiate that balance. And then my specialism is with pregnant and postpartum women. And I feel like that's probably the area that I'm currently

currently

making most progress with my clients, especially because that relationship with climbing changes very much postpartum. It changes during pregnancy too, but postpartum in particular where you're having to learn to adapt to your new body and the changes of obviously being a climber whilst being a parent and that dynamic significantly changes. And I think that feeling kind of supported in what can be a bit of an overwhelming journey and a bit of a daunting prospect.

I find that really rewarding and I feel like the clients get a lot out of that as well.

Ollie Torr (21:44)
Yeah, it's an interesting time to work with athletes when they're going through a natural change anyway. It's kind of like juniors, isn't it? Where we work with adults that might see small changes. They might start and stop climbing, but the physiology generally is pretty consistent whilst pregnancy, postpartum and juniors have a huge amount of hormones. They're just absolutely smashing into the body. So it's kind of like you get to see huge changes that you have to then balance in the training.

Jemma (22:00)
Yeah.

Yes. ⁓

And there are a lot of, obviously there's the physiological side and the physiological changes, but also the psychological changes are really drastic as well and kind of switching away from that performance mindset. And it can be really liberating, but it can be quite hard to let go of. I feel like helping people to feel safe, to let go of that identity that isn't always that helpful for them and for their climbing. And feel like that's really, yeah,

pivotal for many people.

Ollie Torr (22:42)
So how

does essency and weightlifting come into your work with not just those athletes, but athletes broadly, and then particularly to do with the identity as a climber, because I think this is one thing we talk a lot about coaches is there's definitely a transition of weightlifting becoming normal.

Jemma (23:01)
This is...

Ollie Torr (23:01)
But as coaches,

we've often had resistance to spending too much time away from climbing because the identity is with climbing. Like how have you sort of experienced that with those type of athletes and just general athletes?

Jemma (23:08)
Thank

Yeah,

I think so from a personal standpoint and I think this kind of stems the context of how I sell weightlifting to my clients. So I was played with a lot of injuries as a junior, had a lot of shoulder injuries and I just kind of accepted that that was something that I was going to have to live with for life. Had these, they were chronic injuries, I'd had them for 10 years or so. I'm sure there was some kind of cycle

attachment to those injuries as well. And during lockdown, obviously when we weren't able to climb and we weren't able to train, we did have access to some weights. So we had a kind of weight set up in the garden. And that was just something that we just had that space and that time to consistently do, having never really done anything like that consistently in the past and always wanted to prioritize climbing and using that time to only go climbing.

And having that perception actually that I was strong, whereas actually now I feel like I was strong in a full crimp and that was about it. I was getting away with that. But actually after having those injuries for such a long time and consistently putting in the work with the weightlifting, I then returned to climbing and have never had any shoulder issues since, which obviously was a massive game changer and really shaped my relationship with climbing.

that I've certainly seen with a lot of the clients that I work with as well is that obviously...

a phrase I really like is that obviously it's very empowering and often there are aspects of climbing that they don't feel that they can have control of or that it might take a little bit longer to figure out, you know, something like figuring out heel hooking can, it can just take time. Um, and a lot of time expenditure with the climbing sessions, whereas this is something I think that, like you said, that it's kind of, it's a bit misunderstood within the climbing community. And I think some people still

doubt it or distrust it and feel like there are lots of negatives when actually I think more and more people are accepting the benefits of that and how it can really broaden their experience of climbing and the opportunities that rather than steering away from steep terrain they might actually feel empowered to just go and get on that steep boulder or that steep route climb and actually enjoy it.

Ollie Torr (25:31)
Yeah, yeah,

it's quite nice because I feel like having a coach like yourself on and like you've come from a climbing background and I would say anyone would, you know the classic term, you're a climber's climber, like climbing's been first. And like I feel like sometimes because of my educational background, there might be like a bit of bias there. There might be bias, there might be perception of bias, but I think the more people that like yourself have come.

Jemma (25:50)
Mm-hmm.

Ollie Torr (25:59)
from completely prioritizing climbing to utilizing it as a, as just a supplemental benefit is becoming greater. And when we talk about...

weightlifting, we're not just talking weighted pull-ups which climbers have done for donkey's ears, it's all the other bits like you say. Shoulder stuff is becoming more and more popular and it doesn't mean big heavy weights, it means actually good movements and smaller weights and at the right time in the right way. And that seems to make the biggest impact, doesn't it? It's like all the accessory stuff.

Jemma (26:14)
you

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think that you picked up on a really good point is that...

people do think, I'm going to do some weightlifting. I'm going to do the big compound lifts. I'm going to do a deadlift. I'm going to be doing bench press. And actually it is about the timing and the specificity and just making sure that what you're doing really aligns with both your values and you know what it is about climbing that you love, but also making sure that you can facilitate that and facilitate your enjoyment of doing that because you feel robust and resilient and strong. And so I think, yeah, I think there is,

a

lot to be said for you know again lifting lighter weights, building that resilience, a higher rep range but also there's a time and a place for those heavy lifts as well because everybody loves a heavy lift.

Ollie Torr (27:15)
And that's the thing with you, say with your values, that the whole point you did it was so you could enjoy climbing more and get outside as much as possible because that built robustness. It wasn't a case of my values have changed towards performance or anything like that. It was all about climbing still, but that allowed it to happen. So to get to get really specific then in COVID lockdown, you've got a couple of weights in your garden. What did you do to help your shoulders?

Jemma (27:24)
Thank

Yeah.

I did the big compound lifts

Ollie Torr (27:42)
Nice.

Jemma (27:43)
Big compound lifts So I was doing shoulder press. I was doing some kind of shoulder rotations. I was doing some overhead squat. And actually I found that that was one of the exercises that benefited me the most because obviously when you're climbing you are always in that kind of extended position when you feel a bit unstable and you don't have that same control. So to be able to even just have the bravery.

to lift a barbell overhead was a big step for me and then to be able to kind of build on that and progress from that, yeah I think that was probably one of my more kind of preferred lifts and then even just things like like a floor chest press as well.

and just to kind of lay that foundation and making sure that obviously you've got that kind of range of motion. I think they were probably my three shoulder go-to exercises apart from a press-up as well.

Ollie Torr (28:40)
Yeah, overhead

squats I think is gonna be one of my favorite exercises ever because it just puts climbers shoulders in a great position. They have to work the core loads and it's flipping hard doing it with a barbell, 20 kilo barbell. Like, yeah, I mean, I remember trying to get Mina when she was climbing 8C, 8C plus and Toby when he was competing in the world cups to try and do it and they both really struggled because...

Jemma (28:43)
Yeah. ⁓

Mm-hmm. It's really...

Ollie Torr (29:04)
they just weren't used to it. And it was a little bit of learning, but then they felt the benefits from doing it just in that strength. So, you mentioned about your shoulders. ⁓ You are, if you're happy saying, your height, but you're a shorter female climber. So were your shoulder injuries from having to be in so extended positions and dynamic?

Jemma (29:10)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Thank

Yeah, 100%. So I think that predominantly just that overhead kind of strain and not having that strength through the range. So obviously having reasonably flexible shoulders. wasn't like I had big rounded shoulders, but yeah, I didn't have that strength through the range at all. So as soon as you enter into a hyperextended position, suddenly it, you you've got that loss of mobility, that kind of laxity in the shoulder.

and that was really common. I just would have that on a monthly basis but just being a bit minded maybe or just a bit oblivious to why that was happening and just thinking, that's normal because everybody else has got a shoulder injury, that's normal. When actually obviously it's not and we don't have to accept that. We do have the option to do something about it.

Ollie Torr (30:16)
Yeah, I think we've both

probably seen it, those same type of shoulder injuries in...

I would say generally in two types of clients. One is shorter female athletes that potentially, like you say, are more flexible, have maybe laxer shoulder joints. Then also slightly older, old school climbers, males in particular, who just have extremely internal, internally rotated shoulders and they're great in a tight gaston, but have started going to the depo or the commercial gym or start bouldering outside and are really suffering the pain from it.

Jemma (30:34)
Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah.

Ollie Torr (30:50)
So in terms of do you notice the same with sort of those athletes and particularly female athletes and how do you kind of process that information?

Jemma (30:56)
Yeah.

So there was a point I actually just wanted to say about the short climbers before I answered it because you just reminded me when we were on a climbing trip last year to Teguia we met this man called Michelle and he said a really nice phrase that I really thought was great and it was that your span or your reach isn't measured from your hand to your foot it's actually measured by the diameter of your bicep obviously by how strong you are and I thought that was really great

And so yeah, think that like you mentioned about the older climbers who again, probably have never done much weightlifting or any accessory work in the past to focus on that kind of stability. They might have done the weighted pull-ups, but obviously that's a bit of an unbalanced approach. So they've got the kind of rounded tight shoulders and they need to kind of open up and strengthen in the chest. And I think that one of the kind of first steps is about

Again, reinforcing that, we don't always have to just start by two rep maxing. And so we kind of, again, being really specific, getting that buy in with the higher rep range, working on those accessory muscles and with the kind of dangling the carrot at the end that we are going to increase the intensity. And obviously that will start to transfer really well to the climbing But again, obviously there are times when you need to really think about the approach.

that

you take and that very much differs from client to client and although you wouldn't necessarily differentiate and think oh this a woman can't do this compound lift and a man can or an older person shouldn't do heavy weight lifting but more about kind of again the timing is it during a base phase are we in a bit of a transmutation phase where we need to start to think about reducing that overall volume of training if it's a female then they might be interested

in working their training in around the menstrual cycle and this is becoming increasingly popular with the female clients that I work with. And then again, if it's an older client, then maintaining that muscle mass is essential and especially if it's a female going through perimenopause, then obviously you might prolong that strength training and it might be something that you have to work on year round and you kind of cycle it in and dip in and out of it so that you can maintain that strength and mass.

throughout the year whilst also trying to perform.

Ollie Torr (33:20)
Yeah, it's

an interesting thing, isn't it? Because we often get asked, is this going to affect my weekend of climbing? Am I going to feel fatigued? And firstly, like you said right at the start, if you're not doing two rep maxes, if you're not pushing to the limit, you're just doing controlled movements. You're not going to increase your fatigue a huge amount. So it's so useful all year round.

But then again, doing it at the right time of year means you can accept a little fatigue. And you mentioned it there, hypertrophy. What's your opinion on weightlifting, hypertrophy, and different climbing demographics?

Jemma (33:55)
This is a good question. So obviously it's a bit of a controversial topic because of weight gain and as a weight-based sport, there's not always buying. People can be quite fearful of gaining weight and gaining that muscle mass. And again, I think it's about...

again, the timing of it and obviously making sure that if you are going to be having a two month trip that you're not going to be really working on bulking up just before the trip. But again, I think that obviously there are ways to kind of periodise and structure your training and transitioning from those lifts to perhaps an isometric hold. So there are ways that can mean that it's not necessarily as daunting or, you

again if you're going on a climbing trip you might not do a big hypertrophy lower body phase well obviously the weight gain might be more significant and you could tailor again those those target those smaller muscle groups and be more specific so I think that it is it is a tricky one and I feel like actually making sure that that

rep ranges of high quality and not necessarily working to that point of failure, working within that high quality rep range, but still working at a reasonable intensity is a really great way of maintaining those gains without reaching a plateau.

Ollie Torr (35:14)
So with yourself and muscle gain, I would say whenever I've seen you and Maddy just in sort of a vest top, both looking away from you, you've almost got like identical shoulders, maybe just like you're a smaller version of Maddy being a bit shorter, but did you put on more muscle mass after the weights or did it just help with that? Because she made a significant increase when she started an S&C course and put on...

Jemma (35:31)
you

Ollie Torr (35:42)
five kilos, did you put on a lot of any weight and did it make a change?

Jemma (35:46)
So this is a really good question because I think obviously there's the kind of, there's the, There's the weighing up of the kind of...

weight gain but along that bigger picture so obviously if I reflect on my weight from three years ago when I first started to consistently do weightlifting my weight's pretty much exactly the same if not about a kilogram less about the year so there will be times when it's heavier but knowing that actually that is just a part of the process

Obviously in terms of your climbing, for me I haven't noticed any impact. Obviously my weight has been reasonably stable. I've not noticed that impact my climbing. And if anything, having that little bit of extra muscle means that on a red pointing day when you're of pulling up the rope, obviously you've just got that extra work capacity which offsets.

for me personally, any potential weight gain that you might feel during certain phases. But obviously if you were in a route climbing phase, that mass might not be as necessary as if you were doing a really high intensity boulder phase.

Ollie Torr (36:51)
So in terms of how would you approach working with your athletes? Say you have, ⁓ I'm coming to you, I would like a training plan.

I just put on muscle mass as soon as I look at a weight, partly because I just eat quite a lot, but I was the only person to come back from an expedition having put on weight and everyone else significantly lost weight and it did all go to my ass. But you've got me as a client and then

Jemma (37:03)
⁓

Thank

Ollie Torr (37:18)
the other person would be ⁓ say someone like Flo, who's a coach on the team, who I think she can do quite a bit of weightlifting and won't really put any muscle mass on. And if she wanted to put more on, she'd have to work for it. But that necessarily wouldn't be a bad thing. But how would you address us two as different athletes?

Jemma (37:38)
So I think probably the two different approaches that I would take and I would say also that worrying about the muscle mass isn't necessarily the main thing. Obviously it's important to be weight training and it's something that's going to be in the back of your mind but if you feel strong as a climber then I feel like you would take the weight game. That's just a kind of a separate...

opinion. But so I think my approach with you would be that we take a kind of a much more kind of a bigger picture approach. We might again talk about your values and your goals and kind of map out the year with if we had plenty of time in hand. So if you had a performance phase maybe you're planning a big trip in the summer and then we would have the kind of bigger base phase. We would do we would work on the muscle mass then we might

have the higher rep range, lower intensity build some stability and resilience and then obviously increase the intensity but then we would take and then we start to think about some specificity in terms of the movement and the climbing and the goal that you're hoping to achieve and enter into a bit of a transmutation phase so where the actual volume of the weightlifting that you would do would

would reduce the performance. The climbing outside wouldn't necessarily be about performance but more about movement and fine-tuning your skill set and making sure that you're moving comfortably on the rock and placing gear effectively or clipping and resting effectively and then really taper down the kind of the weight lifting that you're doing and maybe transition to some more kind of functional strength or basic low volume maintenance of strength and power as you entered into

into a bit more of a performance phase. Whereas somebody like Flo, if she wasn't gaining the muscle mass but did really want to or felt like she wanted to just be maintaining it, I think it would be, first it would be really important to think about why she wasn't gaining the muscle mass. Obviously that could be genetic, but it could also be to do with her menstrual cycle and the timing. So I think the first place would be to start

tracking

if she was having a menstrual cycle to track her symptoms throughout maybe three to six months and start to get a bit of a bigger picture. And are there times when she was gaining mass more effectively? And if so, was this from day one to 10 of the cycle?

Lattice Host (40:17)
Yeah, I think that's such an important point you've raised Gemma, both in terms of taking that big picture approach and how we can really tailor training phases across the year for someone like me, but also in recognising the role that things like the menstrual cycle can play in someone's training response, especially around gaining or maintaining muscle mass. To clarify, that was purely a theoretical example using Flo who does respond really well to strength training.

But it is also true that this can be really useful thing to consider if as a female athlete, you're not adapting to strength training in the way you want to. Now, I will say that this doesn't work for everyone. Research has shown that, but understanding how you feel at different points in your cycle can be hugely beneficial to some athletes to help them maximize training, not just physically, but mentally as well.

When we know that information as coaches, for example, we're in a much better place to adapt and support the whole process and that training phase in particular.

Lattice Host (41:24)
And lastly, Jesse, welcome to the podcast. Firstly, can you give us a little introduction of who you are and what you do? And then I'm really interested to hear a little bit about your recent climbing and training. I know you've been on a performance phase recently and like Aidan, you've been using SNC and training in short bursts to keep your body healthy, if I'm correct in saying so.

Jesse (41:51)
Jesse Firestone. I'm a climbing coach. I live in Washington in the US and I coach climbers of all ages and ability levels, mostly remotely, but I do work with people here in the Northwest as well. And I try to move people towards being more fulfilled in their climbing and progressing and hopefully performing and sending some things along the way.

currently ending like a almost nine month performance phase because I went on a climbing trip all summer instead of training. yeah, feeling it. But the good news is I did keep lifting the whole time. So I definitely lost some stuff, but...

Ollie Torr (42:20)
Haha

Jesse (42:26)
Giving up on a little bit of climbing to keep up with my training more during that phase is probably the only reason I've not completely fallen apart now.

Ollie Torr (42:34)
I mean, that sounds amazing. Good, good long period of performance there. I mean,

Jesse (42:38)
I mean, it's

good, but it's like going out and having a few drinks. You're stealing happiness from tomorrow, right? Like I'll be in slightly worse shape come like March or April than I would be if I had had this summer. I just, you my wife gets summers off because she's a teacher. So it's like, we just took the summer and went somewhere. I'm totally happy about that. But I also know that I would be a little fitter in like if I hadn't done that. That's just the trade off.

Ollie Torr (43:02)
I was about say exactly the same quote then. Stealing happiness from tomorrow. So what lifting did you do? How frequently and compared to climbing days? I think that's one thing I...

Jesse (43:04)
Yeah.

Ollie Torr (43:14)
I think is I really want to try and educate some of the climbers, you know, that come and do a bit of a training stint with us and then they leave or particularly athletes. Say for example, Aidan Roberts is someone I've spoken to on this subject for this podcast and he's in a, he's moving to a full performance phase for he's a traveling athlete. I'm in full support of it. And we talk about the minimum dosage that he needs to do because we've learned over the for example, what's kind of your minimum dosage and what were you

Jesse (43:43)
So, I mean, I think I'm personally a unique case and I've learned that without like a specific diet and certain training for myself, I will shed weight really quickly. Like climbing enough for me to keep my muscle mass, if I'm like...

Like this summer I went to Squamish and I was like out climbing, you know, sudden spike in volume, hiking around with pads, using more energy and I can't like make up that energy availability on the other side. So I just start losing muscle mass. for me lifting and then eating, like making sure I'm eating at a caloric surplus, like super important even to just maintain. And I, my idea at the beginning of the year was that I would lift twice a week, no matter what. I kind of just have an A day and a B day, you know, basically a deadlift day and a squat day.

And

I pivoted around a little bit and some of those things were more accessories, like I was doing one-leg deadlifts, like landmine deadlifts good chunk of the summer just because they're a little bit less fatiguing than conventional deadlifts and stuff like that. I think I said earlier the idea of just one working set being valid and valuable. And it's pretty easy, even in Squamish if I'm climbing three or four days a week, to swing by the gym.

and just do like two warm-up sets and two working sets three or four exercises. And that's still a lifting day, right? So think understanding that it's not all or nothing and letting that session be really small if it needs to be is a very, important thing for people to learn. That was a big lesson for me, for myself. I'm probably not quite gonna hit two sessions per week because

still been extending my performance season because we keep getting these little spurts of dry weather. so I've skipped a couple sessions in the last few weeks, but up through most of October, had lifted twice a week all year on top of climbing two or three days a week. I'm fortunate because I mostly climb outside. I don't really climb in the gym much, which means my climbing sessions are not quite as tiring I find gym climbing very, very tiring

Ollie Torr (45:29)
Yeah, no walking between boulders, nothing there. No down times, just boom, boom, boom, isn't it?

Jesse (45:33)
Yeah, it's just volume.

Yep.

Ollie Torr (45:35)
So I know obviously you've got some, you've just mentioned some health complications to do with that, but just to play devil's advocate, are we doing lower body, chunk based weight lifting in terms of bigger muscle groups where if you are someone who sheds weight quickly and we're, you you see in the media all the time, skinny legs, just work your upper body, you'll maintain more muscle mass there. Why didn't you let yourself do that and become the leaner lower

body climate that we're told is best thing to do.

Jesse (46:07)
Yeah,

that's a great devil's advocate question. I'm glad you asked that question. mean, the first answer and the most personal answer for me is that because I've been bouldering for almost 20 years.

and I've been taking a lot of big falls for almost 20 years and I just tired of breaking myself in half every time I fall off a tall boulder. I need strong legs. That's like, that is the most crucial and immediate answer to the question. think the more, the more nuanced answer to the question is that climbing is a rear wheel drive sport. sure people have like heard that tossed around here and there. And what I mean by that is like you're most efficient and most powerful when you can use your upper body to drive your hips.

and squat and deadlift are, both do involve hip extension to some extent, especially the deadlift. And if you can get that pattern involved in your climbing and that pattern's strong, be way more powerful than somebody who has a little bit more upper body mass. you just think about like of lean body mass being located in the upper or lower body, obviously there's like a ratio that's for each person. the more you deviate towards body, probably there's a cutoff point where it stops being as valuable. if you just allocate,

all those points into upper body, there's for sure a stopping point where you're not going to be any more powerful because you're just dangling strongest muscles of your body, you're just dangling off of your arms not contributing that hip drive to upward movement.

Ollie Torr (47:27)
I think one of the crucial factors here as well in this conversation is you're talking about someone who struggles to keep muscle mass. maintaining an okay level and you're maintaining recruitment and movement patterns. not trying to get a massive bum and huge quads that for aesthetics reasons, it's a case of let's keep this functional. And I think that's one of the key factors, isn't it? If say, for example, you're with a client extremely muscular, mid 20s,

when he was young, male, and they were sort of a stockier build, you change those parameters around the lifting during performance phase?

Jesse (47:55)
Mm-hmm.

For sure. So

I do work with some people who are kind of more in that boat.

I even work with people where we've like, we're actively trying to like detrain certain muscles, decondition certain muscles because they just put on mass so easily. Like I have a client who wanted to push his bench press during the off season year. And like, he was really enthusiastic about his bench press, but he puts on muscle really easily. then we found after he hit his bench goals, even when we cut the bench to like the lowest possible maintenance dose, was, that muscle was staying on and he was having a really hard time deconditioning it. So guess he's really good at using his chest while he climbs. I'm not really sure.

But we just pivoted all of his training to like either more power based a low enough volume it was not.

keeping the muscle mass on or you use like some coordination trainings. We do like things on the rings for instance, just move more of the training to other areas. But a client where now, know, like maybe doing a high volume of like deadlift or squat is probably not a great idea because their hormone profile is something that's going to enable them to put on a ton of muscle mass really And I just, you know, to respect their journey for what it is and not feel too jealous.

Ollie Torr (49:03)
Ha

It's a really interesting topic that is now someone who puts on muscle mass quite quickly and it's something I explored loads where I think actually thing now research is saying if you've had hypertrophy in a certain muscle group think you can regain that muscle in around 30 % of the time of the previous if you have decreased but someone who's protein to down to dangerous levels done exercise in certain muscle groups trying to manipulate the body

just out of I do think it's a really interesting bring up for me working with some of the athletes, I very much go increase in mass during base and allow that muscle mass to sort of decline. like you said, some people it doesn't those sort of athletes it doesn't happen for, like would an ideal world like you say, limit sort of hypertrophy completely during that?

that bass phase like in an ideal certain muscle groups.

Jesse (49:57)
Yeah, with that

one client in particular.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't even program anything hypertrophic for them. I mean, we never did. It was all strength and some people, you know, if they're good enough at the exercise, taking the exercise close to failure and getting that, under tension in the muscle, then they can put on muscle at any rep range. So training is hypertrophic essentially for that, that person. Right. I think you just need to be really smart about allocating the exercise to the things that are the most important for their climbing. the other important point based on your like devil's advocate question that you asked earlier,

is the longevity aspect and that goes for the leg muscle as well as for the upper body muscle too. Like the conversation I had with this client who was pushing his bench is like, yeah, this is really frustrating for you maybe right now, because it's impacting your ability to feel super strong and light on the projects that you want to send today. But the problem you have versus the problem I have, not that we want to compare those things necessarily, you know.

15 years from now, your likelihood of being able to climb super hard, or at least at the level that you're at right now, is pretty high if you can keep that muscle mass on. That is so key to longevity. if I need to fight for my off seasons to keep putting muscle on, that's like away a little bit of like skill practice time and stuff like that, right? And I'll keep that muscle on. I'll still be climbing hard in 15 years. I don't have any questions about that, but it's definitely nice to put that on autopilot.

Ollie Torr (51:16)
Yeah, that's definitely the commentary when you've got buy-in from the athlete, isn't it? If you go in for the aspect at the beginning, you've lost them, haven't you? terms of, say, weekend warrior then, a balancing a week, kind of getting more more curious about right kind of to do on certain days, because I'm looking at footballers, I'm looking at that are competing every weekend.

Jesse (51:22)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Ollie Torr (51:37)
And I do think climbers, like you said earlier, are really unaware of how little you need to do in the week to maintain those things the week in terms of you need a skill day, you need a little bit of recruitment, a little bit of muscle mass and then you're performing again on the weekends. Like rugby teams, the football teams, they're not smashing it every week. Do you kind of recommend a certain routine in the week and how much do you kind of drop it back for, say, you know, your average client who wants

to climb both Saturday and Sunday.

Jesse (52:06)
Yeah.

If there, if somebody's more of a weekend warrior and we're talking about like an in season where they're going to climb Saturday, Sunday, they're probably gonna have it working with me. They probably have like pretty minimal training during the rest of the week. We're going to get their, whatever their weightlifting is out of the way. We're going to work on whatever the adaptations are that they're not getting from their outdoor climbing. But the biggest thing that you can do during the week, during the week, if you're in a performance phase is to rest so that Saturday and Sunday are higher quality. Right. There's first of all.

That's why we're doing the sport. So we want to prioritize that piece. And like we've spoken about, you can't do that all year. You'll start to lose other things maybe as an athlete, but that is still what we're here talking about. So we need to prioritize that part. Like, you know, 10 or 12 years ago or whatever, when I was a route setter, my week was like Monday unpacked from the weekend, Tuesday, lift weights and climb Wednesday, lift weights and climb Thursday. I'd set routes and for on Friday had set routes and for on. And then Saturday I'd drive somewhere and like go climbing all weekend.

And then I'd start over every week Monday, like 5 % more tired than was the week before. know, it's just not, it's, first of all, I was always really frustrated with my performance because I was so tired, right? And second of all, it's not a good way to actually progress at the sports. It's like, it's not fulfilling. You're not getting better. You're probably not sending stuff, you know? And then I would have like, I'd be forced to rest by work or getting sick or whatever. And then I would have like a spectacular weekend, you know? And it only took me.

Ollie Torr (53:08)
Ha ha ha.

Jesse (53:31)
probably four or five years of doing that before I was like, see I should just take those rest days on purpose and makes the whole thing work better.

Ollie Torr (53:36)
Yeah

The

Jesse (53:37)
Can I say one more thing on that note? I have a little

tiny challenge for people. don't know where this will be released on any podcast or if it will, if you hate doing the dishes, because a lot of people hate doing the dishes, my challenge is to work on your skill of doing the dishes and doing it regularly at the same time of the day and enjoying it as a thing that you do. Because if you can get over...

the frustration or the annoyance of like little mundane things in your life that you don't like doing, it will be much easier to eventually convert that skill into something like not being frustrated when somebody else sends the boulder or like being frustrated when you can't do the move that you did last week or whatever. I think people really all that stuff out, but a lot of it is like transferable skills. And the skill that we're talking about is the skill of mindfulness and just being aware of what you're doing.

If you can do the dishes and be happy that you're doing the dishes, you can fucking be happy doing anything. And it will definitely have an impact on your climbing. That's not training for climbing, but it is like something that can make your climbing more fulfilling and

interesting.

Ollie Torr (54:42)
That's good stoicism there. Good stoic attitude.

Jesse (54:45)
Yeah. This is all just applied epic tetis.

Lattice Host (54:50)
And there you have it. As you've probably gleaned from these conversations, it's the weightlifting is clearly a useful thing for climbers to be doing, but you can get away with doing very minimal training for long periods of the year during peak periods or outdoor seasons, as long as you give it a bit of focus at the right time of year as well. Obviously, the elite athletes Will and Aidan aren't doing it right now or they're doing minimum.

amounts, but I can say that Aidan's been messaging me recently, having tried a lot of 9a boulders in the valley and has asked for some top-up training. So he's still using those small minimum dosage movements. I know Will's doing little bits around his training. And unfortunately, if you're a slightly older athlete, 30s, 40s, 50s and beyond, it's definitely worth incorporating more and more into your training, just so you can stay healthier, support your training.

and enjoy the sport more. I hope you've enjoyed these conversations again and I'll see you very soon.