Excalibur’s First Repeat: Will Bosi’s Hardest Climb Yet

In this episode, Ollie Torr sits down with world-class climber Will Bosi, fresh off his impressive ascent of Excalibur (9b+). Will delves into the intricacies of his multi-year journey with the route, sharing insights into the beta refinements and the patience required to conquer one of the world's most challenging climbs. They discuss the significance of micro-beta adjustments, the balance between power and endurance, and the mental fortitude needed to tackle such formidable projects.

Beyond Excalibur, Will reflects on his broader climbing journey, including his transition from competition climbing to outdoor pursuits. He shares experiences from notable ascents such as La Capella (9b) and his first ascent of King Capella (9b+) in Siurana, Spain. The conversation also touches on his groundbreaking repeats of some of the world's hardest boulder problems, including Burden of Dreams (V17) and Return of the Sleepwalker (V17), highlighting his versatility and dedication across climbing disciplines.

Key Takeaways:

• Beta Breakthroughs: Discover how micro-adjustments in positioning and technique can unlock new levels of performance.
• Balancing Power & Endurance: Learn about the unique challenges presented by short, intense routes and how to train for them.
• Managing Conditions & Patience: Understand the importance of adapting to environmental factors and maintaining patience throughout long-term projects.
• Transitioning from Competition to Outdoor Climbing: Gain insights into Will's journey from the competition circuit to achieving remarkable feats on natural rock.
• Future Aspirations: Hear about Will's upcoming projects, including potential trips to Flatanger to explore routes like Silence (9c) and his ambitions within the UK climbing scene.

👉 Don't miss this in-depth conversation with one of the world's leading climbers. Tune in now to gain valuable insights into the mindset, training, and perseverance behind some of the most challenging ascents in climbing history. Available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen!

The Lattice jingle is brought to you by Devin Dabney, music producer of the outdoor industry who also hosts the American Climbing Project.

Transcript

Ollie Torr (00:00)
Welcome back to the Lattice Training Podcast, where it's our mission to unlock your climbing potential. Today I'm joined by podcast regular and lattice athlete, Will Bosi We're talking about his recent ascent and the first repeat of a Scalibur, the 9b plus route of Stefano Ghisolfi in Arco, Italy. Throughout this conversation, we compare what this route feels like to 9a boulders that Will sent over the last few years, and is it actually harder to send a maximum route compared to a max level boulder?

We talk about Will's schedule and what it looks like to project throughout a trip and his plans to try silence later this year. I really enjoyed this conversation and learned a lot from it about refining beta. So I hope you do too. Let's get started.

Ollie Torr (00:37)
So welcome back to the podcast and first and foremost, congrats, you psyched?!

Will Bosi (00:42)
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me back on. yeah, it's psyched up my mind.

Ollie Torr (00:46)
Brilliant. So tell me about this week. So when did you send? How did it happen? Like, was it a surprise?

Will Bosi (00:53)
Yeah, so I don't know if it was actually a surprise. The route's been feeling really good. It's been feeling really close for a while now. The session before ascent, I think, was on Friday. Went up, the route was still wet in the last three holds, so the two-finger pocket, the last crimp, and the slot that you sort of jumped to.

I gave that as like a, it as a training session and it went really, really well. Like even though it was wet at top and it was kind of cloudy, so conditions weren't amazing. I like felt super good on the route. I made it up to the last dry holes, like feeling really strong. And like went to the two finger pocket, like just sort of like holding it in the bottom, like not pulling on it. So like, and my high point from previous sessions was I got

like stuck that once, walked the feet and my heel slipped before I could move for the next move. So essentially matched my high point and just with no way of continuing, but actually felt strong rather than tired. And so I was like, gave it the two days over the weekend to dry. Yeah, so I was like feeling really confident going into the session. The only, I went up on the, so I set on Monday and I went up on Sunday night or like evening, just as the sun was setting, I went up in the last sort of half an hour.

And like Abedin, I bought like one of those little like jet powered fan things and was just like, I like Abedin and I was like just trying to dry the like the final hold the rest had dried by this point, but the crack was still a little damp. So I was just like blowing it for like 15 minutes for the battery life and then went down. And I think that made a bit of a difference. When I came on Monday, I was feeling really rested, really good. Skin was good. Conditions were incredible. Like not cloud in the sky, like perfectly dry.

And the only thing that hold like when I went up to it on the warm up goal was still a little damp in the back, but like pretty much fully dry. So I was a little worried that could maybe blow it, but it was definitely like a perfect opportunity to go for. So I was, I was quite confident in the session.

Ollie Torr (02:56)
Are you, so when you, when you kind of caught that close in the path and you know, like the session before where you got to the top and it was still damp, when you're going into these sessions, are you feeling like, cool, you've got this, like, you know, kind of positive optimism, because I feel like a lot of British climbers anyway, go, you know, it's just not the day for me. There is, there's one cloud in the sky that I'm going to fall off and like, what's your approach?

Will Bosi (03:19)
I mean, I guess it probably depends on the climb. For Excalibur, it's definitely like, it's played in my head a lot from the first trip where I came and I had like five days, the end of 2022, I think. And I just came for a short trip to check it out and it like rained super heavily on the first day. And the root was basically soaked the whole way and every day it was like drying up the wall. And I think the last day, finally the slot was like dry enough to

like try the last move properly. I made like really good and quick progress even through those like bad conditions. And I was like, kind of went away from that trip thinking, you know, maybe it's actually quite close and it wouldn't take that long. And I think that kind of maybe like messed up the next couple, the next trips I did. I mean, the second trip, the conditions were just terrible the whole time. It kept raining, it was super hot and humid. And I think I had a lot of days where I would turn up being like, yeah, I think I've got a chance today. And actually I...

I just didn't have a chance. So think I was like way too optimistic for a lot of the sessions. And then, this trip I've been a lot more sort of held back, I think. And like the first day I got back on, was like, I made pretty good progress. like, yeah, maybe I could go for a Redpoint. And then I had tried a Redpoint session. was like, no, actually there's work still to do. And I took a step back and treated the next sessions as like working sessions. And that made a big difference. But yeah, coming into these final ones.

It's very much looking at the weather being like, okay, the roots drying for this week. I realistically get two sessions this week and then it looks like it's going to rain again this weekend coming. So I was like, okay, so I've got two sessions. I'm optimistic that I could do it, but definitely like was feeling the pressure, I think.

Ollie Torr (04:59)
Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy how that expectation effect makes such a difference, doesn't it? And sometimes having a little slap in the face, even quite far down the process and then taking a couple of steps back, I you actually refine everything a little bit more and it makes a difference. mean, how many sessions has it taken and how many trips in total?

Will Bosi (05:16)
So in total it's been four trips, I guess, just over two years. But the first trip again was a 10 day trip where I got five sessions, just as like a play in pretty bad conditions. like conditions were good, the route was wet. Second trip I planned for a month and then cut it short after I think it was like 12 days I left because it was just raining the whole time. I got a couple...

half sessions where I could always try the bottom parts of the route. I don't even know if I was able to really, I maybe had one day where I was able to try the top. It was terrible. And then, so I don't know how many sessions I had that trip in total. I would need to go back and look. First trip was like a month after that, went back. Conditions were good. Again, there was like quite a lot of rain though. So it was mixed in with like having good conditions, but the route being wet quite a lot of the trip.

So I made a lot of progress and felt really close to that trip. Like I was sure that if I had a dry day, I had a chance. And then, so that was December, 2023. So then it's been like just over a year to then coming out for this trip from that time. I just ended up not coming back. But actually like with this trip, I kind of realized that I was probably further away on that last trip than I realized. I was thinking like, and maybe it was right there, but.

I know, I did so much like beta refinement and like I basically changed almost, it's probably changed about close to half the route and how I do moves like micro beta and like different feet and stuff. So yeah, it's changed quite a lot since then. So 21 sessions over just over two years, but at least half those sessions, the route was either partially wet or the conditions were terrible. So probably only about 10 good days.

Ollie Torr (07:02)
Yeah, yeah. And that makes all the beta refinement and changing so much even more impressive actually, because you've had quite a few sessions to change everything around. I mean, I've been lucky enough to see the replica here and watch your YouTube. So if anyone wants to see the beta is looking on the YouTube channel, but talk me through the route and talk me through those like major beta changes and like, how do you actually come up with them? Are you doing the same moves when you're a bit more fatigued? Is it just total refinement? Like how do you decide on?

on a proper change when it's such a big project.

Will Bosi (07:33)
Yeah, it's really, it's really difficult to decide other changes, but I'll talk through the root first, I guess. It's, I'm actually going to change my opinion on this. It's 19 moves. I always used to say it's just hard, like 18 moves and then easy top out. I actually think the 19th move where you kind of like jump to the proper jug is probably actually the last key move, but essentially 18, 19 moves split into two boulders with two good ho- two-

reach the two okay holds in the middle. was like, don't know. Yeah, like we always call them like the jugs. That's just how it was always referred to like Stefano was always like, yeah, the jugs in the middle. And admittedly on his single, he rests for two minutes. Like, because I've like counted back in the footage, he's shaken out for two minutes. I don't understand how, like I just get more pumped. They're not good. They're like, they're like decently big and they are in cup, but you don't like.

Ollie Torr (08:03)
Let's define what's reasonable for you. Okay, well how big are those holds?

Will Bosi (08:29)
They're not jugs. They're not rest holds really. me, the way it worked in the end, and I think this is also what Shawn and Brooke have been trying, is you essentially, you get one, you chalk up, you get the other, you do the clip, you chalk up, and then you basically continue. So it's not, there's no rest, but it's essentially broken up because of the chalk positions. The first boulder's probably around 8B, and the second boulder's probably around 8B plus.

And so individually they're hard, but they're not obviously like the top level. And it's quite easy to do the individual moves and then piece the boulders together. Like to link them together came quite quickly, but actually linking both of them together, doing these bigger links, weirdly like it really just kicks up. Like I don't really understand why so much, but the top link I did very...

I don't know if I did it on the first trip. I did the bottom link on the first trip for sure. The top link, I think I dropped the last move a couple of times, we were like, but the beta I was using for it, I think I've changed every single move now. And yeah, the fact that I was getting, like I could do the top link on the second trip, I did it with that beta. And individually, was hard, but like, you you were like, yeah, I could.

I can picture linking into this, actually it just doesn't work at all. Which is why like it took sort of this process of every time you come from the ground and you'd get there and you'd be like, this move just actually from the ground, it just doesn't work this way. Like when you come from only a couple moves below and you're quite fresh, it kind of all pieces together. But yeah, so it was almost like every session I'd come on this trip anyway and go from the ground, get to a move and then be like, that move's just

too hard from the start and be like, right, back to the drawing board. Even though I've been on this clip, you know, 50 times, a hundred times and I've tried everything, let's try everything again, go for all the different betas, look for other feet and see if there's something that makes a difference. And so there's a couple that have been like the huge defining beta changes. And that's what's been nice with trying this route with everyone and having it sort of like when Stefano was originally trying having it as a big open project that you got.

Adam Ondra, Jakub Schubert, think, I'm pretty sure Megos came, then I came and then Shawn came and then Brooks come, then James Svec been there. So yeah, it's been like a lot of people and I've kind of like pieced together my beta from everyone at this point. So I've got the original moves from Stefano and then

the like key move, what I saying before is from the good holds, the original beat that Stefano used, you come to this really bad gaston and just really hard like right hand shoulder move to this hold that's called the cube. It's not quite a cube. It's like two perfect sides of a cube and then the rest is kind of sloped off, but you essentially just hold it on the cube part. It's kind of pretty bad, super sharp and kind of really weird, but cool hold. And that original way of doing it,

Obviously works and from like the halfway link when you're coming fresh was fine. But coming from the ground, that move got really, really hard and it was like, I think the main crux. But Shawn found a beta where you basically, instead of going to the gaston, you like match your lower hands and you can do this like bigger direct move to it and it like completely changes it. That was like, when he showed me that, it was like, okay, the route's on.

And think, that was like the biggest change in beta that I think was the most important, but pretty much, yeah, every move has changed.

Ollie Torr (12:14)
Do you think what you've done now is going to probably become the standard beta or is it going to be height dependent? would Adam fit into those boxes as well or?

Will Bosi (12:23)
So yeah, I think it's a short person's route, I reckon. I think I'm on the... My beta could be perfect. It's not quite. The way that we do the last crux now is quite different as well to how Stefano sent. So you come from this two-finger pocket, you put this heel, this is all kind of the same except we've got like one intermediate foot, which is different.

And then the hold you go to, he was going like into this pocket in the back and then there's like an edge that he was putting his index and crimping around on. We now just, we don't use the pocket. We go fully on the edge with the four fingers, which I think is a lot better. And I think everyone will do it that way now. But the difference here is I can then, I just bump my left foot up one. I keep the heel and I can go straight for the last move. And if I do it well, then my heel stays on.

So I kind of keep tension on the move. Whereas I think for Shawn and Brooke, they're like getting the crimp, then they're having to like match their feet and walk their feet up the right. Cause they're I think too short to keep the heel and then they have to jump from there. So they have like a couple extra foot moves. However, there's a move a little bit lower down, which this was the one that I feel like I think a broadcast maybe posting like I finally cracked the last crux for me. You get this pinch.

and you do the final clip before you go into this last boulder. And I swear no one else struggles the way I struggle on this pinch. Like from belaying people, from chatting to people, from watching everyone else's videos like 500 times, everyone just gets this hold, they clip, they're kind of chilling and then they just can continue through. And for me, it just never felt good. Like it could have goes where it felt not bad, but I always really struggled on this hold. By the time...

I got to it, especially from the ground, and managed to clip. I was basically falling off and it was like, I just will never stick the pocket after because it's like quite, you have to be really pulled in and keep the tension for that move and feeling like you're just not holding the right hand wasn't going to work. And from like studying videos with, and the guys that's been out here filming Diego, we kind of worked out that Shawn, Brooke, all like, and Stefano, they're all like.

pulled into the wall because the feet are so low, they're so extended, they have to be like super close to the wall to reach it. And whereas I'm a bit taller, so I'm like hanging out and we were like, oh, I wonder if there's like, I need to like pull my hips in and like change my shoulder position. And I found that if I twisted my body and like pulled my hips in, all of a sudden the pinch just worked. And it was like this sort of like, this be to break moment for me where it was like, oh, okay. Now this was like two sessions before I sent, I was like, okay.

Right, now it works, it goes.

Ollie Torr (15:04)
That's cool. mean, one thing that stands out and I think this will make is quite interesting for people to listen to is like we always say beta and we're thinking, left hand, right hand, right hand, left hand. And then everyone's thinking like the big movements. And just then you said, I've broken the beta and all you did was sucking your hips a little bit because of the height difference. And that means tucking your knee to the right. And previously the index finger at the back of the pocket versus probably

Will Bosi (15:21)
You

Ollie Torr (15:30)
three foot like five millimeter further out on the edge of the pocket. And it's crazy how much those minutiae make such a difference and it changes the holds. But I think we get so lulled into what hands and feet positions are going rather than how we actually use them. And I guess that's the biggest difference for you guys. One of your level and two sharing that beta isn't it? Cause you've only got so much skin to try all those different methods I assume, you know, linking into the moves.

ruining your index finger at the back and then trying the outside bit might, you might kind of have sore skins. You maybe don't try as well. I do. Do you find that happens quite a lot and then you have to use multiple sessions just to try the minutiae beta.

Will Bosi (16:08)
Definitely, especially on this route, because up until I went to Japan, this was by far the sharpest climb I had been on. Maybe not anymore, but yeah, you don't get many goals before it takes the top layer skin off. And as soon as you go through the hard skin and you go to the softer layer, you can do the moves, but it's so much harder. So you only get a couple of goals on each move for a session where you can actually feel.

good so you know if it's working well, which makes it really difficult. And then, you have to kind of come from the start to know if it actually will work on the go. So for instance, like Shawn's beta break on the cube move, the first time I did it, I grabbed the cube, put my left foot up, skipped the intermediate hold, and just went straight to the next one. And it felt like super easy. And yeah, it's probably been, I don't know, close to 10 sessions since until I realized that I had to do what?

Jane was saying, you have to, instead of holding the cube like on the top, how I was, three fingers and like one finger under, you have to go two in the top, two in the side, come to the intermediate. Then there was a foot outright I'd never used, you had to get this, put in a deep drop knee, and all of a sudden that move was like way easier. And individually, didn't really make any difference, but from the start, the difference was huge. So yeah, it took a long time to slowly work stuff out.

Ollie Torr (17:27)
Have you got any tips or do you do any kind of strategies around say like skin? Obviously, I think I can't imagine free taping works on something this hard and then stay with your boots as well. I don't know how your heels, the rubber held up on some of the heel hooks, but I know when I've been peeling off the edge, do you have any tactics around sort of doing this when it's so sharp?

Will Bosi (17:48)
Not anything groundbreaking. With this route I've just had to a lot of rest days. In general I've been doing day on, two rest days and then back on. And making sure that you don't push it in the sessions. As soon as you think the skin's starting to go, you just have to call it, even if you're not completely battered. But to be honest on this route for me, I give like...

Ollie Torr (17:51)
.

Will Bosi (18:11)
two free attempts and I wake up the next day feeling really sore. So it's been okay, like not having the biggest sessions, but it's just having to be really reserved. think.

In the past, I've definitely like on earlier trips, I think I definitely went way too hard, being like, it's a good day. Like maybe I won't get another one if the rain comes. And then even if it does dry afterwards, your skin is just not as good. So it doesn't work and it's like a knock on effect. But it's obviously really hard to actually be reserved.

Ollie Torr (18:38)
Yeah,

yeah, can imagine. on a trip like this trip, then you've gone, you're warmed up. You've had a good session where you've had two, three really good attempts, which is super hard on your body. And then is that it? You're finished and then two rest days, then go again if the weather's good. And what happens if the weather's bad? you do anything in between like in more rest days?

Will Bosi (18:58)
So this trip's been really good weather wise. We've not had much bad rain. We've had some like rain days, but not enough that the root gets wet with rain. Like it will drip off the top and roll down. But only with like quite a lot of rain. Like with a little rain that will happen to the top and then the sun the next day will dry it off. It's fine. It's only if you have really bad rain, it like will start to seep through the top crack.

So we've only had one storm basically. And other than that, it was always just take two rest days and then go and try the route. And like at the end, if the top holes were wet, was like, I'll just treat it as a training session where I go through the beginning and make sure it's more dialed. The one time it was super wet, I had one gym session. I went to the wall here and did some finger boarding, did some moonboard climbs, which I don't know. It was like my, it's...

The moonboard set I never climb on and you know, the moonboard's always just, you get on like a 7B and you're like, well maybe I've got no chance on the route, like this feels desperate, you know? So yeah, just had like one short gym session. Other than that, it's been pretty much just resting.

Ollie Torr (20:08)
A lot of people will be psyched to hear that. So if you can do 8A on the moon board, get yourself to do Arco and get on the route. So, I mean, we talked about this before actually, which I found really interesting, the amount of attempts you have sort of when you're bouldering per hour, sort of 40 minute rest. So two, three attempts in a session, maybe a little bit more if you're doing kind of a training link. How long do you usually kind of spend on a rope because

Will Bosi (20:13)
Yeah, right.

Ollie Torr (20:35)
From the climbers I know, it's anywhere between two hours on some Enduro climb with the most patient belayers in the world to a quick go, look after your skin, go back down, have a cookie. So kind of where do you sit in terms of like how long is your days out?

Will Bosi (20:42)
I'm

Yeah, it's interesting because Excalibur is very different to, think, a lot of other routes. I think, weirdly, the days out always are kind of long, always around probably four hours for... Yeah, we're normally going up around that midday to one and then staying till sort of just before sunset at five. But I don't know, climbing just takes a long time. The amount of goes and time I was on the wall is very little. Excalibur...

One of the cruxies is not numbing out because you need it to be cold because the holds are so sharp that you need like the good friction otherwise you just will cut your skin. So you have to go in cold days and then you're worried that basically like a lot of the goers you get to the rest in the middle of the two good holds and you're like, my hands are numb. This is like, isn't great. And you can try and you can get further, but it just, it's not, you definitely want feeling for the upper holds.

I would go do like a warm-up go where I pull up to the good holds in the middle like pull on them like a bit to warm up after a bit of finger boarding and then you go through the top half of the route, come down, pull the rope like then just like take into the second draw which you have pre-clipped and try maybe one or two moves there, come down, have like five minutes and then go for a red point and after the red point basically just come straight down then take like an hour, hours rest.

do like another little warm up go, come down and go again. So you want to basically do the warm up go and then you're maybe like a little tired from it, but you're like warm. So you're not going to numb out. And that was kind of pretty key. But actually the, on Monday, the day I said it was way warmer than all the other stations I've been having. And like the route was in the sun when we got there. And so warming up was quite easy, but I thought conditions might actually be maybe bad because of it, but it was still like.

there was a bit of a breeze and it still cold enough that you didn't numb out. You stayed like, the conditions were actually really good. I think maybe I've been trying it too cold for a lot of the time.

Ollie Torr (22:41)
Yeah, it's so hard, isn't it though, when you think, you know, when you're particularly when you're learning on those sharp holds, you just think cold of Etta, cold of Etta. And then obviously blood flow does matter. Like you say, if you're numbing out. one thing that stood out to me, we were talking about earlier was the amount of the world's best climbers that have been on this route and yourself. And I've seen, I think a lot of us have watched your tick list over the last couple of years and

This is me saying this. I'm talking about your perspective. When I hear font 8B, font 8B plus, I'm thinking that's not that bad. that's like, surely like this isn't too bad, is it? And with a rest in the, well, I don't know, Stefano rest in the middle. So shake out. But those two things seem to be a really hard calibration for me to see how much time you've put into it and how much time everyone else has put into it.

Will Bosi (23:20)
Yeah

Ollie Torr (23:33)
Is it a style of the climb and those boulders that makes it so hard to link? Is it the fact that the boulder grades on their own are just inherently easier? Is it the style of like this length of route kind of why is it so difficult?

Will Bosi (23:46)
Yeah, this is something I've been struggling with a lot because originally I think it was when they were like Adam and Stefano trying it to begin with, they were like, yeah, it's probably like 8B, 8B plus boulder at the beginning and then 8B plus HC boulder at the top. And like that breakdown is obviously a lot harder if you take the upper end. But I think with all the new betas, think it's definitely, it's probably more, I would say it's the 8B and then 8B plus on the top. And that by itself, you're like, yeah, it is hard, but

I know what you mean, that it should be able to link together relatively quickly, you would assume. And individually, those boulders did link together pretty quickly. And I've spent a lot of time thinking, why is it that it's so hard to actually link the full route? And I think it's the rest. I think that just screws the whole thing. I think originally, when I was trying to shake out a little there, that was just like,

you just get a bit more pumped, a bit more fatigued and then you just like lose that edge of power because you don't have like good, you've got good feet, but they're not in good positions that you can like pull your weight in. You essentially just have one good foot that you can use either your left or your right foot on. So I think you're actually quite engaged still in the shoulder and like in the body. And I think it just takes that little edge off for the sort of moves at the top. And for sure the beat of that Adam and Stefano were

using when they were trying it for the last two moves. It essentially made it like the last two moves were the red point crux by a long way. Whereas I think my beat is lot, not a lot easier, but works maybe a lot more consistently. So I only fell on the, I never fell on the second last move and I fell on the last move once on the go before I sent on Monday. Whereas like Stefano was like, I don't know.

It was maybe like 10 or more sessions, I think, up in those two moves. So he was obviously way more consistent through the beginning. But then I wonder if he was like trying to beat it, if it would have gone faster. But yeah, I, I honestly think it must be the rest that messes it up because grade wise, when I compared it to roots I've done in the past. So like my first cent, King Capella in Sierrana, which I originally graded 90 plus based off the stuff that Craig then like Yaka proposed to them grade.

to 9b and its boulder breakdown was 8b plus into 8b so it was the same breakdown just the other way around and so I was like I guess if you like have the harder one on top maybe it does change it a fair bit but I think the difference is there was no break in the route so it was less lightweight maybe only 12 moves rather than like 18 and just not having the break in the middle just completely changes it so I think that's the reason

Ollie Torr (26:28)
It's interesting that because Stefano is, we know from sort of testing, has an amazing ability to recover. Probably, I think it's the best score we've ever seen still. But is he interested in trying the new beta? As he said about coming down and trying it with a slightly different beta.

Will Bosi (26:37)
Yes.

I've not actually spoke to him about that, but I'm pretty sure someone said that he was like, he was definitely keen to go back up and feel it and see how it is. But like he went, I think, in the last year when Shawn and Brooke were here and he was like trying like a sit start to the root or like a low start because the root technically starts like slightly off on the right. There's like a rock and you stand off the rock onto the wall into the start position and you could start like directly into it. makes.

Logically to me, no sense. He was psyched and tried that for like one session, I think. And that would probably add like an 8B boulder to it, which would make it crazy hard. But I'm not sure. I don't think he's ever gone up and tried the rest of the beta. That's changed.

Ollie Torr (27:25)
So

are you not motivated for the sit start then? Or is that something? No.

Will Bosi (27:31)
No,

that's like, I feel like at that point I could be at Raven's Tour, you know, just doing the boulders into route still. no, I'm very happy with what I've done on this line and I'm happy to move on.

Ollie Torr (27:39)
Yeah, yeah.

Sounds good. So in terms of the amount of time that you've put onto this then into the route, and I know that you did replica training, which I'll come onto a bit later for that. But how does this back up to the last few years of other climbs that you've been doing? So the boulders, 9a boulder, some of the routes you've been doing, because like you've just discussed, to me, it feels like this short power endurance route.

is only open to a certain specialist who is really strong and you're taking out lot of the endurance climbers and you're taking out a lot of the low end boulders that don't have any recovery capacity. And it seems like a really hard element of climbing, which maybe is getting a resurgence now. so how does sort of this stack up compared to Alphane and the other boulders and routes you've done recently?

Will Bosi (28:36)
Yeah, other routes I've done recently is probably not a long list, is it, to be fair? yeah, it is really interesting. think because I mean, that's one of the reasons I got super sites originally was like, I think it's kind of in the style that I love doing, which is that power endurance where you're doing really hard moves, but like first sustained period. But it's not the sort of classic endurance where you end up just getting jugs and resting or knee bars and like chilling for a while. It's just like the continuous fight. And so like the routes like

Ollie Torr (28:40)
haha

Will Bosi (29:04)
the roots of the La Capilla sector in Spain are like pretty perfect for that. And yeah, I feel like they're maybe getting popular again. was like a couple of years people weren't really going, but like this year there was like like Tamoa went back and was trying stuff and that's pretty cool. And I do think people are siked in it, but it's definitely a different style. I don't know how well it would work with like comp climbing for instance, cause in general comps you don't do very long routes, but

Ollie Torr (29:20)
Ahem.

Will Bosi (29:32)
Again, they're still probably double the length. But like if you're sort of a traditional route climber, 18 moves is the intro to the route. So, and then for bouldering, like Alphane is a long boulder and it's only nine moves. So it's still half the length. Sleepwalker is probably similar, I guess, as well. But yeah, so compared to longer boulders I've done recently, for sure in my eyes, it's considerably harder than Alphane or Sleepwalker.

and other long things like trying comparing it to like terra nova is an interesting one where i think it i mean obviously i've not done terra nova yet but it's a long bullet that i've been trying and i'd i'd like to imagine i've had like just over half the days in terra nova that i've had on this and it feels really close so i i think it's harder than terra nova as well but again all of these are more in that sort of around 10 moves

mark so it's still quite a lot less so it is hard to compare compared to short routes that I've relatively recently like stuff I've done at the tour it's for sure like a lot harder than any of those like Brandenburg Gate even though the boulder is harder probably on that it's just like one boulder off the ground which is a lot easier to do

Ollie Torr (30:46)
Yeah, so it kind of ends up, when we're looking at comparisons of Boulder grade to root grade, and we always say something like, is there around 8B plus Boulder, is around 9A root, I think you said this earlier, and then, so how does this stack up if it was along Boulder? Say if it was Bishop Highball, that'd be terrifying.

Will Bosi (30:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, so this, yeah, I think this holds pretty true. Yeah, exactly.

Like we were, I was chatting about this as I was like, could you like put like lots of like in, you know, in climbing gyms where they have the sort of the like ramp almost where, yeah, exactly. Like if you, on the rock to the side of Excalibur, if you had this like big inflatable ramp down, would be so good. Cause in general, yeah, 8B +, if like the rest of it's pretty chill.

Ollie Torr (31:17)
pump center.

Will Bosi (31:29)
and has an AP plus boulder, it's going to be a 9A route. Then the same for HC translates to 9A plus pretty, like pretty well. And that's what I was Brandenburg and Adam's done with quite a few routes. Then HC plus boulders equivalent 9B route. Again, I think that holds pretty true. There's not really HC plus boulders on routes, but when you look at a lot of Adam's HC plus boulders are like 25, 30 moves long, you're like,

Yeah, that would probably be a 9b root. And then, yeah, so it would make sense that 9a would be, boulder would be 9b plus root. And it probably is true for Excalibur, I think if it was a boulder, I think 9a would probably be right. Even though the breakdown of 8b and 8b plus probably doesn't sound hard enough to make a 9a in my eyes, but just the way, the style of it and the way it climbs.

Ollie Torr (32:21)
Yeah, I mean, that's one thing that I think I've appreciated more talking to you and talking to people that have been there about it is like we kind of go through these breakdowns all the time, but I think as soon as you add a little bit of endurance or that really poor rest, like I can appreciate it physiologically, it just changes the game completely. And also the technical perfection in some ways you have to have because you've got that little bit of fatigue, you can't grab holds the same. Like you say, you're numbed out, which plays a massive role.

And all those things play such a big element into that grade and difficulty. In terms of how it's stacked up for you in your head, you've obviously just been to Japan to, she's great to your fingers for a little bit on the sharp holds there. And then you've been to America, kind of, have you been planning your entire year around this project in particular? Has it been on the top of the list or is it just a case of keep an eye out? How do you, how do you.

plan your projecting these days and ordering of priorities.

Will Bosi (33:18)
Yeah.

Not very well. Like, it's always kind of been in the back of my head and kind of of top the list and always think, yeah, next winter, like once we get to winter, like if conditions are good, I'll go out because I got so fed up of coming out, like planning trips coming out and then it being wet. And I was just thinking, if I can like book time like I did from like January to February this year, where was like, okay, I've got time. And if it's good, I'll just go out for it.

Ollie Torr (33:22)
Haha.

Will Bosi (33:46)
which has been like a big change because planning in advance made it really difficult. Whereas I was really worried I'd kind of blown it this year when I planned the Japan trip obviously well in advance because it was very expensive. That's a long way. And yeah, we went out to Japan and the entire time I was in Japan, it was perfect weather here. I would check the forecast every day and just be like,

What am I doing? Like, should I have just gone there? And then I could like barely climb in Japan because you'd have like one session every two, like three days, three or four days because it just, that unbelievably sharp rock. So I was not even training. Am I going to be weak? And then I come back and then it'll rain again. That's what I was thinking. So yeah, that kind of stressed me out a bit, but no, it's always been in the back of my mind and always something that I'm like,

if it aligns and I'll go to it. But yeah, the other trips are things I've really wanted to do and then I plan them kind of more in the future.

Ollie Torr (34:42)
So tell me about your kind of year and how you're staying informed. We've just talked about the physical difficulties of doing the hardest boulders in the world, then having to prepare an element of power endurance at least for this. And then you've done replica training. Like how are you juggling all of those things in the year these days?

Will Bosi (35:00)
Yeah, so for this trip, I didn't really think I juggled it super well. And the last time I came for 2023, in the sort of build up, I had the reticle lattice. I was coming in a couple of times a week and like training on that. It was just a reticle of the top part though, the top half boulder. So it worked well for getting better at that, but it didn't really solve the insurance issue. But yeah, after Japan, because I was kind of worried about form and not having done any power endurance.

I came back on the 15th December, spent the whole sort of winter period training really hard. I started with like two weeks, two to three weeks of basically just power training and like getting back into finger boarding, bit of recruitment and then just like hard board sessions trying to do like relatively long bowlers. And then for the next two, three weeks before coming out, I was doing like a mix between that and then.

Like power sessions and then just power endurance sessions where I was doing like 20 move boulders on like a spray wall. So like in the school room, I was doing that. I did one which was, I made like a vague replica of XC-A, where the stuff holds to the wall, like similar sort of moves. And then you got to the top and they were like two similar, but a lot better holds you could shake out a bit and then drop and then you jumped back onto the second half of it. Whereas in general, I was making up like

full just 20 move lines the whole way with no rest. So yeah, it was kind of like a, I guess, five, five or six week period of like training really hard for it.

Ollie Torr (36:29)
I always think six weeks is a really nice period. It's short enough to really focus and not too long that you don't get kind of bored of stuff. But it's quite a nice day as well, even though you've got confidence in these kind of little training periods now, you still have that little anxiety on trips that we all get going. I've had too many rest days and I'm getting weaker. But when you come back in that five, six week period, are you building?

You know, like your old style training fatigue, like a training block fatigue where you're like, oh, I'm digging a bit of a training hole here, knowing that you'll come out of it, or are you just feeling like you're getting better and better and better and then you leave again?

Will Bosi (37:06)
I think it depends, it does change, but this trip came back and the first two free sessions were pretty hard and I felt pretty weak and tired, but then after that it felt pretty good, fast. we're still taking it relatively... The one thing is it's really difficult coming from a trip, especially this where I'm having a lot of rest days, the sort of session endurance just...

disappears and I feel like the ability to recover is like drops a lot. So when I get back into the first two weeks, I was still having to take quite a lot of rest days. Whereas by the end, it was like a lot easier to be doing like two days on one day off or something. Whereas at the beginning, it was maximum one day on one day off. So like I probably did have some double rest days as well. So it, but it's like just making sure that I like go slowly and build into it each time, which is really hard to do, especially if you're like

thinking, I've not got long before like, like someone's going to be in season or I want to try that. And then you're like stressed and you kind of go too hard too early. But yeah, I think I'm getting better at kind of doing it slowly and building up.

Ollie Torr (38:13)
bit of maturity there kicking in. So on this trip, how long were you planning on staying? You know if you're seeing progress and good weather, what's kind of your point where you go, this is diminishing returns now, I've got to leave? Or did you have a set date you had to leave anyway?

Will Bosi (38:29)
so I didn't have a set date. The trip I, we planned 16th of January. came out and the return date was the 30th of January. But because I was feeling so close, was like, need to stay like another, I feel like in a, another session or two, I could do it. So yeah, luckily I had the ability to extend the trip and we extended it to the 12th of February. So mid next week, I think. and.

potentially I could have stayed like another week or two is probably an option. end of February I do have some things I need to be back in the UK for. But yeah, I was thinking like maybe I could fit in another session or two if needed, but it definitely was this feeling like this was probably going to be the end of the trip, I reckon.

Ollie Torr (39:20)
Nice. Do you feel pressure now publicly in terms of when you're on trips like this? I think you do such a good job of putting it out there and I'm not sure if you want people to know this, but you even have Will's whispers, which I think is really good. I think given that content, obviously to the public, it keeps everyone along for the journey, not just the good bits, it's the whole thing. But are you starting to notice any pressure coming into that or does it relieve it for you? Does it make it more normal?

Will Bosi (39:48)
I think there probably is a bit of pressure just because you're like, ah, like almost in a way I'm like, ah, I don't really want to like, if I've like not done anything new, I don't have like anything cool to post, I'm like, ah, if I'm just posting something and being like, I had like another bad session, people might just be a bit bored of like hearing me say I've had a bad session, but I don't think it's so much pressure that I'm like, oh, I need to send because I've been like telling people I've been trying this.

And yeah, I really liked sharing this sort of whole journey and the whole experience of stuff because I think it's kind of important. I do feel like it's something that a lot of people on like climbers and Instagram miss quite a lot where they just post to send and they kind of don't. So actually the full sort of meaning behind everything. I really liked sharing it. So I don't think it adds pressure for the performance side.

Ollie Torr (40:35)
think as well showing all those beta refinements and changes, it's kind of like, know, when someone creates a new product or does something new and you get to see the full thing from start to finish, you get much more appreciation of the end result rather than seeing the two minutes or four minutes or whatever of the actual climb in one go, you get to see those refinements. Like you said, you've just changed the beta completely. And I think for me as an observer watching those stages, it kind of

shows all that backend to it. then also kind of justifies the difficulty and the quality of it as well, because you get to see the work that's gone in.

Have you, with the, with this route in particular, am I right in saying that it's a little bit manufactured or it's been supported?

Will Bosi (41:12)
Yeah, definitely.

So it's probably one of the most pure, natural, hard sport climbs in the world, which is ridiculous. But yeah, there's reinforcement on a couple holds and there's...

There's one hold I'm actually not sure about. There's one hold for sure which you essentially are holding the glue, like you're holding the Sorosica, because I'm guessing it was just like this whole thing was like falling away. And that is like the most affected by conditions. It's like there's gaston and because of it not being rock and it's more you're holding the glue. If it's humid, it just feels wet and you ping off. It's really frustrating. But actually, it's probably one of the most natural.

hard support roots, is, yeah, so that was one of the things that got me super psyched by it. I think it's really cool. Because in general, everything is pretty much a natural hold. And there are obviously the ones where you can see like a bit of glue in the bottom supporting it, but you don't hold that or even touch it, which is always a nice change. And what is cool is there is just the perfect amount of holds. if basically there's like a lot of holds, if they broke off, the root wouldn't go, which is super cool.

And it's one of the things there's like the two finger pocket at the top. It's, don't think it is, but it does look a little fragile, which is why like if it's wet or damp, obviously like I would go training links, but I then wouldn't like pull on that hold that you just have to take there because yeah, if that broke, the root would just be finished. It would suck so hard.

Ollie Torr (42:50)
Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people assume that all this supporting and gluing only happens at local crags and on easier routes or like, you know, trade routes that people are doing all the time. like you've just said, most of the best climbs in the world are supported somehow because the holds are so small. and obviously that clearly is a motivating factor for you. Is that something you look for beforehand or you decide afterwards whether you enjoy it more or less based on the amount of sort of support?

Will Bosi (43:18)
But it's definitely something that would factor into looking before. There's some routes I'm not going to get too controversial here, but there's some routes that you can just look at a photo or a video of and you're just like, what? It's literally just covered in glue. You can clearly see holds that have been made. They weren't there. They're just been added on or pockets drilled. you're like, for me, it really doesn't get me that sight. Obviously, I'm still sight-to-climb, so it depends on the route because sometimes it's not a big deal.

Ollie Torr (43:22)
Ahem.

Will Bosi (43:48)
especially if it's like a super old, historic one that was, you know, the, I guess the times have changed and how we view it now, but back then it's different. So like I went and write something off, but yeah, are definitely facts into what I would choose to try.

Ollie Torr (44:02)
So it's a 9a boulder, I assume still 9b plus route and you've been climbing on it with Jane who's obviously helped with some of the beta and stuff as well. How did you find it climbing with her on there and how is she getting on with that? Is she been your main sort of recent climbing partner on the route?

Will Bosi (44:21)
Yeah, this trip she was the only climbing partner I've had on the route, which was really nice. Yeah, I had a really good time climbing with her on it. And like that was one of the key bits of beta came from her. So when you grab the cube, was the holding on the side and the drop knee. She had found that when she came last, it was something like August she was here. It was ridiculous. I don't know how she was climbing in that temperature. It was like crazy. But yeah, that was like super important. there was a couple.

And then actually, was a couple bits of beta I tweaked with sort of climbing with her and her help, which was like massive. Yeah, I think, well, I don't actually know who's, like what beta actually now is the most important bit, but it's probably between her and Shawn Raveter, like without both of them, I don't think I would, I mean, I maybe would have found the beta eventually, but I think the route would have taken a lot longer without their help. It was a lot of fun.

trying to everyone on it. And yeah, she's doing really well. Moves coming together pretty well. like there's a couple, weirdly the cube move she still is doing off the shoulder. Doesn't like the sort of direct method, but it looks so easy for her from the shoulder that maybe it's okay. Like genuinely crazy. Like that move for me was like, or like I think for most people it's like a really hard move. It's like, she's just like locked in on it. It's amazing. So yeah, it was.

Ollie Torr (45:39)
Thank

Will Bosi (45:43)
Definitely inspiring and a lot of fun.

Ollie Torr (45:44)
Cool. Is there, so you're coming up to your next project. So you're going to choose them based on who else is on the climb as well, do you think? You've obviously enjoyed it so much sharing this process. Is that because there's an existing route rather than a, you know, first to send your developing, but do think you'll choose your next project based on who's on it?

Will Bosi (46:05)
I mean, the thing is, when I first tried Excalibur, it was still a project. Because that trip I came was like the December and that's one of the crazy things. Me and Stefano was sent on the 3rd of February, just two years apart. So the exact same day, just two years apart, which is ridiculous. But yeah, so it was two months before he had sent I was here, or a month and a half.

Ollie Torr (46:21)
wow.

Will Bosi (46:31)
felt like I helped a little as well because he had, I think, done it from the second move to the top already at that point, but he'd only ever done the first move once. I remember, was like, it's hard, I was like, just considering how easy you do the rest, I don't really understand it. we were chatting and I worked out that he was holding it in the wrong position with his fingers. And then it was the most ridiculous thing. Literally the next go, he pulled on and fell on the second last move. And I was like,

Wow. Just like, so I feel like I hopefully helped unlock a little for him too. Yeah, it was amazing process trying with everyone and it's definitely something I would like to have going forward. So in terms of like, but I think in my head, like of roots and boulders that stand out, I've only got two that I'm interested that are established in really, or like that are super at the forefront and then

I've got a lot of projects and stuff that I'd like to try. So obviously if I could get people to come try the projects with me, it would be sick. But I guess that depends on people's psyche And then the two that I've got to try, obviously that I'm super psyched on is Terra Nova. I really want to finish off. And I've been trying that with Jane, so that's always a lot of fun. And like last time I was out, got the full French team was there. So was trying like Barefoot Charles, which was awesome.

And yeah, I am hoping for the Plan Is A Flatanger Anger trip later in the year to check out Silence. That's the one I'm most psyched to go look at, just to see how next level it is.

Ollie Torr (48:02)
Wow, that's pretty big news. So some of your messing around in the cracks might pay off.

Will Bosi (48:06)
I I don't know if it's big news

unless I actually do well at it, you know? I think I just be going to like feel the holes and be like, cool, right?

Ollie Torr (48:15)
I think it'll still make an entertaining YouTube video having a play around on that if everyone's following. So that's actually extending the length of your climbing a little bit then so you might have to do a bit more endurance.

Will Bosi (48:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, although I have had it promised by Adam that you don't actually need endurance in Flatanger because you just get kneebar rests everywhere. I don't know if I believe that, if I mean, if I'm going realistically, it'll be a bouldering trip. So I'll be trying just the crux, right? So I probably don't need endurance, but yeah, I think for actually sending would be a bit of a game changer to take a lot, a lot of training and a lot of work.

Ollie Torr (48:51)
So you go into Flatanger have a suss out of that and then decide what to do after that point. And then your other projects, are they on the other end of the spectrum, which are hard boulder first and sense or are they routes as well?

Will Bosi (48:58)
Yeah.

Mostly, yeah, there's a couple of routes that I'm interested in checking out in the UK, but yeah, it's probably Boulders. I've got a project at Badger Cove. Actually, I can never remember if it's Badger Cove or Badger Cave. That one always confuses me. But I spent 15 sessions on last year and yeah, I'm still missing one move, which I had done, but I broke the intermediate. So now I have to go direct and I've not done it direct yet.

The crux moves are unlucky if I can link them, if I can do them once in a session and I've not linked any of them together. And that's like power endurance boulder as well. It's like, I don't know, 16 moves maybe of hard climbing. So yeah, that's like one I'm the most psyched on I think at the moment.

Ollie Torr (49:47)
Brilliant. So I've got to ask, some people might be saying you've got the ability to travel the world as much as you can do and then go and see the world's best climbs. Terranova and Badger Cave Cove. What's the attraction? What is the attraction there?

Will Bosi (50:02)
So the thing is, I absolutely love the Czech Republic. Like it is genuinely one of my favorite places to be. It's such a nice country. The people are lovely. The food's great. It's just like such a good like place to be. And although Terra Nova is a traverse, a limestone traverse, I'm aware it's not a good line. It's realistically not a good boulder, but there are a lot of actually really good lines and cool climbs around there. Like...

Compared to the UK limestone, it's really good. It's how I the qualities a lot better. And yeah, Terra Nova is, it's just a different sort of light, is it? Just, I think the historic factor to it, just how psyched I was like as a kid watching the real rock that it has Adam sending it in and just like, I don't know, it's just such a cool boulder. I don't know. It's just, it is different and I admit it is not.

return of the sleepwalker or something, you know, it's not this amazing, beautiful sandstone or the perfect holds and the best moves. But the movements are cool. The holds are relatively cool. And yeah, I don't know. It gets me psyched. I like tried it. Badger Cove is maybe harder to justify. The moves are amazing on the climb there and super fun to try. Yes, the rock's not the best. The holds probably aren't the best.

It's not contrived, but it's not obviously like a pure bolder line. You do get to top out, which you don't on Teren over those, so that's a bonus. But I don't know, it's just got me in sight. I don't know why. I do have other bolder projects that are cooler lines, but definitely not as hard.

Ollie Torr (51:36)
I actually think he...

I actually think that's one of your biggest strengths is the mixture of just going with the psych and then curiosity about movement. Like, you know, even with basic fingerboard stuff or basic training things, the replica stuff, a lot of that is about curiosity, isn't it? It's almost like playing the game rather than seeing it as I have to do this purest line or something all the time. It's enjoyment in the nuance, which I think a lot of people could learn from. That's cool. Awesome.

Will Bosi (52:06)
Yeah, well, we'll spin

it as a positive that I just like climbing on choss.

Ollie Torr (52:11)
As a British climber, we hold that in high regard. So thank you very much for representing us globally. Well, amazing. Well, congratulations again. And yeah, thanks very much for your time. That was really, really good. And yeah, all the best on the next project.

Will Bosi (52:14)
Yeah.

Thank you and thanks for having me again.