9A Mastery: How Will Bosi is Redefining Elite Bouldering

 In this special episode of the Lattice Training Podcast, host Tom Randall sits down with elite climber Will Bosi to discuss his remarkable second ascent of Spots of Time (9A/V17) on Helvellyn. Will offers a deep dive into the physical and mental challenges behind his historic climb, sharing the preparation, training strategies, and mindset that helped him send one of the toughest boulders in the world.

Will reveals how he adapted the original sequence for his own climbing style and collaborated with fellow climber Aidan Roberts on beta, making this achievement a true test of both physical endurance and climbing intellect. They also explore Will’s unique approach to training—mimicking moves from the ground to conserve energy and protect skin—and how this method helped him succeed.

In addition, the discussion touches on grading comparisons between other legendary climbs, including Burden of Dreams and Alphane, and Will’s thoughts on pushing the limits of elite bouldering. Will also shares insights on his new chalk brand, Bosi Blizzard, crafted to tackle tough conditions and support endurance on the sharpest holds.

With insights into the mental toughness needed to handle the pressure at the top, and a sneak peek into his future projects, this episode is a must-listen for climbers aiming to understand the mindset behind high-level ascents.

Key Takeaways:

• Will Bosi's adaptation of beta and sequence for Spots of Time
• Unique training methods to conserve energy and protect skin while preparing for a major project
• The mental preparation required for tackling world-class bouldering challenges
• How Will’s Spots of Time send compares to other 9As he’s tackled
• The evolution of climbing grades, including potential V18 projects
• What’s next on Will’s radar, from Japan’s hardest boulders to new UK projects

Tune in now for this exciting discussion on breaking boundaries in the climbing world!

And for Bosi Blizzard checkout https://williambosi.com/

The Lattice jingle is brought to you by Devin Dabney, music producer of the outdoor industry who also hosts the American Climbing Project.

Transcript

Tom (00:00)
Hello and welcome to everyone to the Lattice Training Podcast. Today is like a news flash of the moment. This is the latest stuff that just hit the newspapers. It's Will Bosi He's just made the second ascent of Spots of Time and we have got him right here on the end of the podcast to answer all of my questions and

some of your questions. Welcome Will.

Will B (00:31)
Hey everyone. Thanks for having me on.

Tom (00:35)
Yeah, it's been a little while since we podcasted, hasn't it?

Will B (00:39)
Yeah, I remember, think the last time was, at least a year ago, where I'd come back from, I think, an unsuccessful trip to Excalibur. So it's been a while.

Tom (00:51)
yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, I remember now. But I think we're going to be okay because we've got a general good track record of talking climbing and all things to do with that. So I'm sure this is going to be fine.

Will B (01:02)
Yeah, like rambling a bit, claiming for sure.

Tom (01:07)
Yeah, I think we both do. So I think to, I feel like I'm to break the ice a little bit. It's been a year since we podcasted and you know, there's always going to be some lighthearted stuff that comes through in climbing, which is also important to everyone. So I'm going to completely break normal podcast traditions. I'm not going to ask you about your childhood, your favorite color and

how many dogs you had during your teenage years. I'm gonna start with a few listener questions just to kind of get us going and give a bit of a lead in to some of the other questions that are gonna come at the end of the podcast. Because I'm gonna try and make sure that we've got a balance of the questions that I've got for you, but also some that some of the audience have as well.

Will B (01:55)
Thanks, kid.

Tom (01:56)
Yeah, okay. I mean, you say sounds good, but are you really prepped for these questions?

Will B (02:01)
We'll find out, I guess.

Tom (02:03)
So I did the usual thing of putting something on my Instagram and going hit me up with questions because I'm interviewing Will today and there were an alarming number of questions on a few topics that I don't know what I was expecting these actually and the first one was

Will B (02:21)
Blue DM. Forget worry.

Tom (02:24)
There's so many people asking, what is going on with your beard? Still, they're asking.

Will B (02:29)
In what way, suppose. I feel like it's the projecting beard. Like, when I start projecting something, just sort of stop shaving and then let it grow out. It's just sort of sessions tick by. I find it quite fun. You know, I really like the beard. yeah, did actually shave it off in the summer, truly, which was the first time since I guess I started growing it for like,

Tom (02:35)
you

It's obviously giving you lot more power.

Will B (02:57)
Burden, so a year and a half ago, which I think I looked about five years younger when I was looking in the mirror, it was kind of crazy. And I don't know, I like the beard, so I think it's good for projects, it keeps you warm in the winter, you know.

Tom (03:13)
Yeah, I mean it's definitely a good Scottish look anyway The second question that I had a lot of was all based around parmesan and Oatcakes biscuits, etc. There's a lot of people that seem to be quite obsessed with the whole parmesan thing For anyone who doesn't know about your parmesan obsession. What is what's the deal with that?

Will B (03:16)
Yeah.

that's a, yeah, maybe obsession is the right word to be fair, but I just really like Parmesan. I think it's a, it's a really nice cheese and I eat a ridiculous amount of it. And it's also, think one of the most protein dense foods there is it's 30, 3 % protein, I think. So that's like, obviously you have to eat quite a lot of it in fairness, but like for a hundred grams, you're getting 30 grams protein. That sounds pretty good to me.

Tom (03:56)
Correct?

Will B (04:06)
And yeah, I guess I'll kind of think that I used to just eat a packet of plain oat cakes for breakfast pretty much every single day, which apparently doesn't do it okay. like, imagine sort of like porridge or like muesli oats, but like sort of baked together into like a little thin cracker. So it tastes essentially like dry cardboard. But it's not good.

I used to basically eat that every single day playing for breakfast all the way through school and everything. And then I got into a lot more like having it with parmesan on top as well, improves it as a snack a lot more. And I don't know, think it's a, yeah, it's something I eat a lot of. I haven't actually been eating that many oatcakes to be fair in the last couple of months, but still ton of the parmesan. I like it. I really like a lot of pasta and, or, you you go for cheese on toast, but it's just parmesan on toast, you know, like.

I just eat a lot of Parmesan. Probably like my biggest food expense, I think, probably every year, Parmesan.

Tom (05:07)
really? Yeah. didn't expect this. Have you thought about Parmesan sponsor?

Will B (05:09)
Probably, I'm not actually sure, but I eat a lot of it.

There was the Italian gymnast during the Olympics. don't know if you saw, there was like an old photo shoot that she did that come out where she had Parmesan sponsorship. This is worth Googling. that is the dream. Like just, I don't know, like photo shoot, like finger boarding, holding a big wheel of Parmesan or something. That is the dream right there. Yeah. I'd love for it to happen, but I don't know how likely that would be.

Tom (05:17)
would be great.

Really?

Well, hopefully some massive Parmesan brand is out there listening right now, going, this is the open door. We knew it. We get him eventually. Okay, somewhat silly question and then we'll get into the real meat of everything is also quite a few questions on your skincare slash how you deal with

Will B (05:50)
That's it, yeah.

Tom (06:08)
washing your hands, showering, what's the deal with that? Are you like a marigold gloves and keep your skin condition perfect in the shower and the bath? What are you using on your skin? Because you're a big crimper and skin quality is key.

Will B (06:26)
Yeah, it's really interesting this because I know there's like, there's a pro climate that I'm aware of that, yeah, always showers in, as you say, in rubber gloves, not to get the skin wet, never wash up dishes with rubber gloves or anything. But for me, I have to share it every morning, like the whole body. Otherwise, I find like my skin is so greasy and sweaty that if I don't share it, just ends up by about midway through the day. I'm having a session with my skin, it just feels terrible. It feels like really greasy.

So I shower every morning and yeah, I actually kind of come full circle. There's a while where I feel like, kind of against getting my hands wet and I'd always wash up and rub my gloves and stuff. But actually now I think it's Like I've come sort of circling that I think obviously if you've got good skin, you don't want to get it wet because you want to keep it good, keep it dry. But because my skin was...

so fast, I can have a couple of hours in the climb and pretty much the skin will be like a layers through in general. It's more like about trying to rebuild the skin. And I think keeping it moist is actually really important. So now I actually like, really rate like this year I've been doing a bit of like actually being in the sea a bit more. And I think salty water is like amazing for skin because you kind of keep it sort of moist, also like salt dries out afterwards. And yeah, I quite rate having like

Tom (07:46)
Mmm.

Will B (07:49)
a bath here and there as well as recovery stuff. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like maybe not what you'd expect because I've got very wet skin, but I think keeping it wet actually helps it heal quite a lot.

Tom (08:01)
Yeah, interesting. Okay, well, there you go, folks. WILD is not an all-out user of marigolds in the shower or the bath or anything like that. That might come to surprise to some people. Okay, right, let's get stuck into this because I know a lot of people will have tuned into this podcast because they will want to hear all about...

Will B (08:18)
Yeah.

Tom (08:30)
your experiences with spots of time. And also want to talk about the sort of general grading boundary, that 8C plus 9A territory and some of your experiences with it, because obviously you've actually climbed quite a few 9As now and you're right there at the top of the leaderboard in terms of boulders operating at this level and have kind of done it on a number of different lines.

And then finally, I know people are be pretty interested about what you've got next and what you're planning for because it's a question I'm gonna come to right at the end. The number of questions that got on Instagram this morning, which were V18 when? 9A plus when? Just reminded me of when everyone was asking for the footage from Burden in Dreams. That's definitely a popular question as well.

Will B (09:17)
Yeah, you get that, sir.

Well, I didn't give them much chance to ask for the footage of this one. I've already posted that yesterday. Yeah, that's a really good question because just quickly jumping in on that, I've had a lot of comments, I've seen a lot of comments online that sort of V18 when. Or like, you should really look like, always expected well at this point to be like, you know, trying a harder project. And it's not that I haven't been looking and I haven't been trying. It's just, what?

Tom (09:27)
Yeah, yeah.

Will B (09:50)
It's hard to find the right thing and things that have been trying are really, really hard. So I'm not getting very far. Yeah. And I'd like to think like that kind of like probably my main goal maybe is to find a sort of futuristic project that I can put maybe a couple of years into and hopefully end up sort of establishing the next level would be super cool. And the summer spent a lot of time, think. 13, 14 sessions at Fadger Cove trying a line there, which

maybe isn't the best line in the world, it's the only downside, but for sure is a level above anything else I've tried. I had done all the moves, but not being able to basically link more than like one together at a time. But I broke off one them, an intermediate, and now there's a move I haven't done again, which it feels, I think that move still goes, but yeah, the full line feels very far away. So there's things I've tried, but I'm still looking for.

Tom (10:35)
Yeah, I remember that,

Will B (10:46)
maybe better lives, but yeah, it's hard to find and actually then hard to do, right?

Tom (10:52)
Yeah, yeah, always. We'll come back to that in a little bit. But I think the place I want to start is maybe a bit of a rundown on your personal history with Spots of Time and how and where and when it kind of came into your climbing life as such and how your kind of early...

early experiences went on it. Yeah, it'd be cool to kind of hear about that, first of all.

Will B (11:25)
Okay, yeah, so I think it started some point a year ago, maybe where Aidan was messaging about having this project in the Lake District and thought it would really suit me and was basically, I was going to have to be keen to come check it out and try it with him. And I remember he showed, I can't remember if it was in person over a message, but he showed me like photos or videos and yeah, I was kind of blown away. I was like, wow, that looks really good. That looks really like my style, all the heel hooks up there.

the right hand side on the ramp. And yeah, I was really excited. But then I don't know if it was just the schedules never really lined up, but either I think he was away or I was away and I just never ended up going while he was projecting it. And so I didn't actually go in. Like I knew about it for probably six months or so, but I never I didn't go and try it till after he had sent. And I had a session. I came back from America.

in March, the end of March went down. think it was like, even the, I think it was the very beginning of April I went, had my first session. Or yeah, second day there though, I suppose, because actually like the very beginning of April and then it was like a couple days later, went back. First day I went and it was after tons of rain and I just assumed it was going to be soaking wet. So I hiked up with no pads or anything like that, got to the boulder, it was going dry. I was like, well that's annoying.

Tom (12:46)
you

Will B (12:47)
So I felt all the holds, but couldn't really do any climbing. And then, yeah, so went back a couple of days later and actually had my first session on it, which went pretty well. I think by the end of the session, I'd kind of done of the original sequence that Aidan had tried, not the one he sent with. think I'd done five out of six moves. But just in no more on the harder ones.

Tom (13:12)
And that must have been pretty, that must have got you pretty psyched going and having those early sessions and immediately not going, I'm just totally shut down by at least half of the moves.

Will B (13:16)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's the thing. was like, what? Okay, like this is definitely possible and doable for me and hopefully not too much work. But it was, it wasn't like doing the moves and hitting hold right and being like, yeah, I feel stronger. was like, by the skip, like just holding on and no more. So the thought of linking any of them together basically seemed ridiculous. And I went back.

Tom (13:43)
Yeah. And did it feel ridiculous, the link, even back then?

Will B (13:46)
Yeah, yeah, it felt like it was going to take a lot of work to get the link. Because the individual moves, unlike with maybe Burden, was more like the first move of the boulders, by far the crux. And the other ones are hard, but you can kind of see once you've done the first of others, you could probably get linked together quite quickly. Whereas Spots felt a lot more consistent to me. So it felt like each move was really hard.

Tom (13:49)
Yeah.

Will B (14:13)
So linking just the two move sections was going to be really hard. Nevermind like then putting it all together. Then yeah, I had like a two week break, whereas in think Portugal. And then yeah, I came back at the end of April and had my second session. And I don't know, in the two, three weeks it been, it had just gone up like five degrees or so, and it just felt completely impossible. Like it just was too hot and my skin like cut open, I think in a couple tries.

Tom (14:17)
Mm.

Will B (14:43)
I repeated, I think, most of the moves I'd done before out of the five, but yeah, they were all felt even harder and yeah, I didn't feel like I was getting anywhere. So at least I think, I think it was over two sessions I had at the beginning of the year. Might've been three, but yeah. And then I basically just like, right, okay, not going to try this till next winter because it's just going to get hotter and hotter. And for me in general, it's the experience I have climbing Lake District is it's a long drive, quite often long walk-ins.

get to the boulder it's really sharp if it's not good conditions it cuts my skin open in about three tries i don't know they just have to like walk over the side of the car like so yeah i was like very much i'll just leave it and come back in the winter

Tom (15:28)
And in those kind of initial early sessions, were you chatting much to Aidan about progress and ideas on kind of alternate beta and how you were finding things? Because you both know each other really well and you know each other's climbing styles well. Like, you doing much kind of back and forth chat on that or is it quite insolvent isolation?

Will B (15:48)
a bit, yeah. I definitely was letting him know how I was getting on in my sessions. Well, what I didn't realize was the way he actually sent the boulder was quite different from the small amount of footage at the time it had been posted. So I was actually trying this old sequence, not the sequence he was trying. And yeah, so that I only actually clicked to.

like a week or two before his send video went live the other month because like with Sam Lawson and he like, like you want to see the sync that's what was watching. I was like, he's skipping one of the moves that I was doing. I was like, that makes a lot more sense. So yeah, we were definitely chatting, but I guess not too much about the sequence maybe.

Tom (16:22)
really?

Mm.

Will B (16:42)
Yeah. And I didn't specifically train for it over the summer or anything. I didn't say a rep, but I did have in like the moves kind of in my mind. I did try when I could to kind of look for maybe more like right hand undercutty problems. And I was, I like finger boarded a bit over the summer as well and tried to like feel like strong and little cramps. So was definitely like putting the style of problem into my training, not from rep.

Tom (17:12)
Okay, yeah, because I was going to ask about whether you'd used any of the replica strategy on it because both you and I have used a fair bit of replica training now on our own respective projects over the years and know it's really fricking effective. Was one of the reasons for that for you this time that you were just moving around too much, too much traveling, or you just felt like actually on initial sessions the moves were there and you didn't have to...

You didn't need to use that strategy, it just wasn't the best, I don't know, for want of a better word, like a low-hanging fruit approach to use in this case, there were other approaches.

Will B (17:49)
Yeah. It feels like a very, very technical boulder, even though it's like quite board style. The moves are all, you have to do them very well. because I like you saying, so I felt like I could do the moves, like my strengths kind of there. I felt like the most important thing was going to be time actually on the moves. And I felt like if I made like replicas, it just weren't exact. It would just probably throw me off a bit. So yeah, I think.

What I knew was I needed to wait for it to get cold and then try and get as many sessions as I could actually on the boulder and then go from there and reassess if it was then clear that I wasn't actually strong enough to link it all together. So that's kind of where my thinking was with it.

Tom (18:31)
Yeah, OK.

Yeah. And I know for people listening right now who just heard about the prep that you did for Spots of Time will probably be screaming at their phones or car radios or whatever they're listening to going, but what finger boarding did he do? Tell me. I need to know what finger boarding sessions was he doing for V17. So I'm going to not miss that opportunity to go. Will, what finger boarding sessions were you doing for your V17 prep?

Will B (19:04)
So yeah, fingerboarding is something that I've struggled with in the last couple of years because when I basically tried to do like max hang or like really put you, I just end up pulling blisters in my pinkies and I don't know, it just destroys my skin. So I've not actually done much versus summer. got back into it, but I did very chill sessions. So then she had used this warm up and like warm up, you know, climbing around and like drugs and stuff. And I get on the fingerboard and slowly work into it.

to the point of seeing one arm max hangs, but not pushing it, if that makes sense. So trying to do four sets, but only at body weight as well. So I'd warm up on whatever edge I could then comfortably sort of one arm hang, and then slowly transition down through the edges. I have started a lot on the 20, 22 mil edge that's quite standard. And then we'd go to the 15, 16 mil, depending on the fingerboard.

into 10 mil and then if I could do that like for the software five seconds then I would go to try like eight mils but the goal being like whatever edge I was like throwing the most like 10 mil I would try and do like four sets at five seconds or like attempt four sets and however if it got to like set two and I was like my actually my skin feels like it could tear the next one I probably wouldn't have to stop there

Tom (20:10)
Mm-hmm.

Will B (20:28)
So it's like a bit of a chilled approach just at the beginning of session before we go into like a board session or something. But yeah, just Max Hangs trying to get stronger on smaller edges, not trying to like add weight into bigger edges or anything. It was all just based around trying to get ready for really ratty small crimps.

Tom (20:47)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's an important thing to note there in terms of that fingerboarding choice is that what you've done is you've taken a very high specificity approach here and recognize that when you're climbing on these holes, spots of time, you're not doing it.

in excess of body weight and not actually putting that much force through it because the holes are really small so your finger boarding sessions replicate to some extent what you're actually doing on the project and that's why that kind of approach is useful when you're getting towards project time rather than you know like a year out from doing something.

Will B (21:25)
Yeah, definitely.

Tom (21:26)
Okay, so fast forward a little bit. We've done the summer prep, some training, fingerboarding, etc. and you've come back around to this autumn. How did that go for you?

Will B (21:40)
Yeah, really well. So I think was it the beginning of September? Yeah, no. know some point in September. think in the beginning I went and a friend from Edinburgh was up and we just drove down for the day to pick it out. And actually it was like a pretty good conditions day. It was like quite strong winds and it wasn't that hot and it wasn't an amazing session in that I didn't do the last move so was still

wasn't able to do the one we hadn't done. And I felt like it was a bit closer to it. Like I felt like I I like worked out some micro-retards, but then I didn't try much of the rest of the boulders. So didn't feel like there was a huge amount of progress yet, but I was like, okay, it feels like it's getting back into season. So like I started to get really psyched for it, which was kind of important. I did have one goal though, where I felt like it almost stuck the last move, but the way I was trying it was more of like a right heel hook still to the right.

Tom (22:28)
Mm-hmm.

Will B (22:38)
As I like slapped the lip, the heel popped, then my toe popped, then my right hand popped, and then my left hand went at the end. So I like sort of swung out in a pendulum motion and then missed the landing, missed the dads and the hills were really steep there. And I went about eight meters down the hill. I managed to stop myself right on the edge where there's like a three, four meter just drop, straight drop into this like shallow river. Which could have been like a really bad call. Like the fact I didn't even sprain my ankle was crazy, but.

Yeah, that was kind of scary. was like, you know, I don't know if I want to try that beat anymore.

Tom (23:16)
Yeah, yeah. Was that the video that you posted and you said, and you asked people, how far do you think I went? Yeah.

Will B (23:21)
Yeah, and so the guy filming Angus, he just instinctively stopped the video as soon as I like, like where I posted it, where the video ends, because he like thought I was about to have a really, really bad fall. I'm sorry, like running down the hill after me. But yeah, I went quite far. was like, it was really close. I felt like I felt like I had a period of like real near misses at that point as well, because I had that and then I had

But two days later we're at Dumbarton and I was spotting him on this 8B and he still slipped to the top out of it. So he spun around and was going to miss a pad. So I jumped in and spot. patched his back but sideways and I managed to push him towards the pad. So he's fine. Because he was sideways, his elbow just goes straight into the side of my head, breaks my glassy, cuts next to my eye. I've got a scar now.

Tom (24:09)
Yeah.

Will B (24:14)
didn't stop bleeding and I ended up having to go and get like it glued in the hospital in the night. And yeah, there's so many things that were like, kind of bad, but could have been way worse. And I felt I was getting quite lucky with that. yeah, so had that session was then I think two weeks away from it came back had another session. And in which with the I was still kind of trying I think with that beta art, maybe that sessions where

Tom (24:24)
Hmm.

Will B (24:42)
I actually started to change the beta round. Yeah, that was this session after I'd seen Aidan's 10 footage. So that's when I had worked out the micro beta, the session before of how to hold the final undercut, because I was holding it, think, fingers Onsighted in a different place. And I worked out this like, if I dropped about half a centimeter lower, actually felt a lot better. And then, yeah, with Aidan's foot beta for that section, all of a sudden I was like, OK, I didn't do the move, but.

It's really there. I can definitely do it. It felt very possible. that's also, I said where I worked out that it's potentially possible to skip the intermediate second move and just do this one big dynamic move. then, yeah, so then that was like beginning October and then basically all of this this month just been going back and as whenever it's been dry, being in the Lake District, unsurprisingly, it's wet a lot of the time.

Tom (25:40)
Yeah.

Will B (25:40)
And there was. It's been a mix. I had, think two sessions that were kind of terrible conditions, but then the rest have been pretty good.

Tom (25:49)
Yeah. And so, so would you say that, you, you'd in the kind of period up to just recently doing it, you had enough flexibility basically in your life and schedule to be able to basically make it work around the British weather and conditions and everything like that. Cause I do think that objectively it is really hard in the UK to be able to climb things which are right at your limit. Cause it's just annoying to get good conditions in this country.

Will B (26:17)
Yeah, definitely. think this is one of the things that for Aidan was like insanely perfect. This is genuinely like 10, 50 minute drive from his house in the late. So like you'd be able to look out and be like, actually, the weather is good today. I just don't have a plane, even if you have a Robinson well rested or coming. But yeah, it basically I took the entire month of October with nothing like I tried to make sure I wasn't really doing anything so that I had just as much time as I could so I could just be always looking at the weather and

Tom (26:22)
Mm.

Will B (26:47)
being that, you know what? looks good in two days. I'm just going to rest her skin and then try and go back then and see how it feels. Because the other thing is it doesn't work to do. I think it'd be really hard to do trips for this folder. Like specifically, like if you're to go stay nearby and just go and try it because it's so intense on the skin and the fingers that I would find after a session, it would be like at least two rest days. I only had one session where I went back after one rest day and it was like a pretty

Tom (27:11)
Mm.

Will B (27:17)
bad session. felt like just still too tired and my skin was too bad. So like for me, it was like at least two rest days needed between sessions and ideally probably more for skin. So it's the sort of thing I imagine if you don't live close enough to like, I guess I was then like if you're traveling over for it, it could be really hard to get the conditions. The good thing is it's a very fast drying boulder. So as long as it's windy and it's not raining, it will dry.

Tom (27:47)
Yeah, yeah, it's, I think it's a really important note, the whole thing about skin condition and how you manage your time on and off a project when the stuff is limiting for skin. And I sometimes wonder whether people see or hear...

Will B (27:47)
yeah.

Tom (28:09)
elite level climbers taking this kind of strategy and being quite thoughtful about it and thinking about the amount of time that's required because it makes a really big difference but then not actually applying the same principle to their say 7a project because they're going well it's only 7a but in reality if something is at your limit skin condition makes so much difference like I notice it on basically every style of whether it's cracks

slabs, face, slope, everything, skin condition, can, it can feel like two grades, I'd say sometimes, in terms of difference.

Will B (28:47)
Yeah, I mean, was yesterday and back up and when I was through the bar and trying this project I've got there and it's like second Red Point session on it, think. And it's again, really small edges. And the difference between the start of the session, the first couple goes and then it goes after is huge. And it's not like I'm any skin or I like cool blisters or anything like the skin still intact. It's still there, but I just lost that good first layer.

Tom (29:15)
Mm.

Will B (29:15)
And yeah, as you say, it's very much like the move, like the first move, for instance, the easiest move gets about two grades harder. It is wild.

Tom (29:22)
Yeah. Do you find it as well that it's almost like once your skin starts to warm up, it's like the plasticity of it changes. And I almost maybe 20, 15 to 20 minutes into a session where I'm feeling really good. It's almost like I just need to stop at that point and then just go and keep really warm with a jacket and give my skin half an hour.

to cool down again and then I could extend the session way beyond. But if I push beyond that limit and then the skin gets really warm, even though it feels kind of perfect and I haven't taken layers off, it just gets worse and everything feels a harder.

Will B (30:01)
Yeah, 100%. This was something that was, I think, really important for me that I had learned from trying Burden that I used on Spots of Time as well is essentially warming up, like warming up on the fingerboard mostly because also warming up the goal is not really much of an option. And when you do your first couple pull-on, like you do like the easier moves, kind of learn them. And you're like, basically as soon as you're like, okay, I feel warm and ready to actually go from the start, you just take your shoes off and you stop and like almost

Having to like set up my phone as a camera and stuff was really good for this because it you have like it guarantees that you have to do that. But just taking like as you say like 10 minutes at least of like chill time to just actually even though you've essentially not really started your session, but just you're like, I'm warm. Yeah, you definitely have to just stop and let the skin cool down. It makes such a difference. It's crazy.

Tom (30:50)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And am I right in saying that you had a bit of a, maybe not a totally different, but a more evolved method on this project of almost sort of trying visualizing the moves and putting your body through the positions off the problem to set yourself up the best chances when you actually pulled onto the problem. Can you talk us through that?

that method you're using. Because I'm thinking some people will be going, is that like Ondra when he was doing silence?

Will B (31:22)
Yeah, so this is something that I think...

No, no, not quite as extreme as that to be fair. But yeah, this is something I think I've probably done to an extent through a lot of problems. I think burden was probably the first problem that this kind of became more of an important tool. But yeah, I really was very heavily relying on this in the spots because it's

But like it is like basic board climbing in a way, but the moves are very fast and very like technical in that you have to do the movement right and you have to hit the next hold in the right place. If you hit them wrong, realistically, you're not going to do the problem. And because they're so bad at skin and so hard, you don't really get a lot of attempts actually climbing to learn them. So what I was doing is basically feet on the ground, you just stood on a pad or like the lower moves kind of grouch down and you set yourself up as you would for actually climbing, but just you don't.

put your feet on the wall, so you're just doing the ground, but you're like full Crimp weight the holds a bit, and then basically try and like move as if you were doing the moves, so your whole body moves, and you try and like, fold your hands between the holds and try and hit the next one perfectly. And you can start off by doing it quite slowly, so that you always like, you do like a good couple of slow C's to actually get the holds perfect. And then try and like speed it up a bit and try and make it more like the actual movement for the climb. And yeah, in...

warm up upon getting to the boulder every session. That's something I was doing a lot with like feeling the actual moves. So like you can do one move at a time. It's like the best to begin with. But then as you feel a bit better, do like you try and like link a couple together and tend to actually climbing the boulder. And it's just like a lot of it is a, is a light visualization. Am I saying that right? And basically just trying to like train the muscle memory without actually

Tom (33:07)
visualization yet.

Will B (33:16)
wasting your attempts on the boulder. And yeah, I did a lot of that. in warm up a lot and then basically in between every try and the like work getting ready to go again. One that like it's, I don't know if it'd be before after it depends on how I was feeling it for needed the rest of us. But yeah, it'd be where I or

on all the moves to be honest, I just be re going through them again and just continuously doing like, well, it looks really weird if someone was there watching me just like, tend to repeat this move like five times in a row. And then yeah, brush the holds and then like shoes on chalk up, get ready to go. But I think that made a huge difference on this climb. I think that probably took multiple sessions worth of like extra sessions I would have needed. I think I took that off if I hadn't been doing this. Is it?

Tom (34:04)
Hmm.

Will B (34:07)
definitely felt like I just learned the moves better and then I was able to repeat them on the wall a lot faster.

Tom (34:14)
And how much kind of visualization did you do away from the project, sort of off session as such? Cause I know from my perspective, one of the things that I often try and do when I have root projects, not bolder projects, is I set myself this challenge that in my kind of waking up in the morning time or when I go to sleep is that I can perfectly visualize from the first move all the way through to the end move without a single distracting thought.

coming in like, I need to empty the bins or, I've forgotten to answer that email. And I really like having it as like a little visualization project challenge, because I find it hard to do that without a single distraction. you, have you been doing similar with Spots of Time?

Will B (35:00)
Yeah, I don't know if I think of it to be the same way, but for sure with me for projects, I, they just like completely consume my mind. So literally all day, every day, I'll just be, it's just in my head when I'm trying to write that, just the move, like any sort of spare moment, I'll just be sat there and I'll be like thinking about the moves and then my own world, especially trying to get to sleep. gets really hard because I just end up like, I lying in bed, I think with my eyes and then I'll be like,

go through the moves one time, you know, and then I like to get more more psyched whilst I'm in bed. I don't like more awake, I don't like, man, I need to get to sleep. Yeah, so I don't like specifically have like drills I do visualization wise, but I just think about it all the time, I think.

Tom (35:31)
You

Yeah, okay. Well, that's, I mean, that's, reassuring to know that you're doing something like that. I guess that's why the kind of, the obsessiveness and, plays out so well to that time on task kind of element that we often look at in sport that whether you're physically on something or whether you are mentally on something, you've got more and more chance of success. The more time you spend doing that thing.

Will B (36:10)
Yes.

Tom (36:10)
And what about when you were the sort of final bits of prepping for, you know, the closest to getting to the day of actually doing it, what were you doing in terms of heels, choice of whether to use heel or not to shoe style for it? Cause I know, you you use five, 10 shoes. I used to use five, 10 shoes back in the day. And there was a, there was a real heel thing that went on with those shoes that was.

let's say almost a cheat on some holds, although they've stopped doing the Blancos and many of us are quite upset that we haven't got our little cheaty rubber skyhook on the back of our Blancos anymore. But yeah, how did you sort of tackle the heel and shoe element to the equation?

Will B (37:00)
Yeah. So the way Aiden ended up climbing the boulder in the long sequence is very, very Aiden style, I'd say like very front on, sort of toe driven, the super physical, whereas there is the option of a couple of moves where you, I guess at the end, actually used one extra heel hook and he did, he used one in the middle, which is like a sort of standard heel. It's on quite a sort of big flat hole. So you just say that the heel turned out sort of

what you'd normally do. Whereas I used a heel on the first move where he went front on. And yeah, the first move essentially you heel on this really small edge and you have to essentially use a sort of that like straight on heel hook rather than any sort of twist. So you're just on the very back of the shoe. yeah, essentially I was using the 510 Nyads which have a little bit of a cheap heel still and that was making a, that made a huge difference on that move.

It is possible about the shoes that Aidan was doing in his when he originally was trying it. But yeah, definitely they felt like I was locked in on that move, which helped a lot. think. With these the wise, though, it's interesting because I think most of it, like the way that I climbed it, the heel for the first move, thought was great. The doing the more dynamic, bigger second move, I thought worked really well for me. A third move, like me and Aidan both do the same off the like.

bigger heel and then the last move again just feet straight down, make dynamic sort of powerful slap. I think it's a really good sequence. I think there are other options which are things that I had explored like keeping the heel for the last move and like the higher up force heel and I think that potentially people in the future might do it with either mixes of our beta or Onsighted different beta as well but I think for our styles the way Aiden did it and the way I did it like kind of actually were

Pretty perfect for each of us, which is cool.

Tom (38:58)
Hmm.

Yeah, so did you feel like when you did it you weren't... what's the word to use? Is it you weren't sort of disadvantaged in style? You know that awareness that you sometimes have when you know your peers well and you're trying the same project and you're thinking, well this thing totally works them well here, I'm kind of short-changed on this move because this isn't my thing, but I've got an advantage over here, but because you had your work

around and you made some of the moves work better for you. Do you feel like you kind of had a more even game on it as such?

Will B (39:36)
Yeah, I think so. Like this is a thing where the way that I did it in the end, the sequence, everything that moves, the skip in the middle and stuff, I'm like, it feels so much easier, or not so much, but it feels easier, like to me considerably than what Aidan did. But then like thinking about it in that style, it's like, but what Aidan did actually suits his style a lot better. So it potentially isn't easier. It's just one suits me and one suits him.

That's the sort of thing that I guess we need to wait for other people to come along and try and see what actually ends up being the Onsighted easier beta, I guess. But yeah, I definitely felt like I managed to find a way that suits my style. And I think Aiden had beta that suited his style relatively well. it kind of, yeah, it definitely felt like quite evened out, which was very cool. Not like when you just try a problem that's got just one sequence on it and yeah, if it doesn't suit you, just like, this is rough.

Tom (40:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Am I right in saying as well that you were at the birthday party of your girlfriends the night before, like three hours away, and you drove up the next morning? like, was there an expectation that you actually gonna do it that day? Because I don't know about me. Maybe I'm a bit more selfish, but I'm not sure if I thought I was gonna send my absolute limit project. I'm not sure I'd be at my girlfriend's birthday party the night before.

Will B (40:49)
Yeah.

And yeah, so the birthday party had been planned in advance and I'd be like, yeah, yeah, I'm going like, cool, that's whatever. And then the weather was meant to be terrible there on that day, on like the weekend. And I know the birthday was Friday and then the weekend Saturday and Sunday was meant to be rain. So I had gone like a session earlier in that week, which looked like the last dry day when I got to the boulder, it was like in a cloud. This was on the Tuesday, I think. I was just, was like, the conditions were just terrible. So I had like a

Tom (41:03)
Ha

Will B (41:32)
pretty rough session and kind of bumbed and I thought, whatever, this looks terrible for like this foreseeable life, but it's forever. And then yeah, the Wednesday I went, checked out a Leeds climbing wall that I'd never actually been to in Leeds. They like read out the old one. So that was pretty cool. Went, had the session there. like, I haven't been climbing in ages. It was great fun. I don't know, like done Onsighted like an 8 B couple 8 A's, did all right on the 8 C. was like, like feel actually all right fitness-wise, that's cool.

Tom (42:00)
Yeah.

Will B (42:01)
And then yeah, it was checking the way that night that I seem like, hang on, maybe I shouldn't have done that session because all of sudden Saturday is looking really good. Like the weather just completely changed. I was like, but I've got the party as well. Like, I don't know what to do. I was like, look at my skin. Like, did I mess my skin up by climbing as well? I was like, you know what? I'll just do absolutely nothing. Thursday, nothing. Friday, take two complete rest days and then give it a real shot. Saturday. And yeah, so Friday I did go to the party, but like didn't do any claim or anything.

I basically, I tried not to drink very much, which is part of the game, so I only had a couple of drinks. And then, yeah, I think we got home around 3am or something. had a decent amount of sleep and I think I left about 10am. I know, I know. It's not a fret for you, I started driving over at like 10 or 11 or something. The first hour and a half of the drive, all around Sheffield towards Leeds and everything, was just...

Tom (42:44)
3am that's an athlete start

Will B (42:58)
torrential or not torrential, but it was just raining really hard. So it was like super light. I was so tired of the car and it was like raining really hard. I driving like kind of miserable. was like, what am I doing? It's gonna be terrible. But then the second half of the drive, the sun just basically came out. The clouds kind of cleared. It was like a lot of blue sky. And I was like, okay. Like conditions actually really good. Got to the parking, walking up. It was a bit warmer than in general I would like it to be, but it was like.

There was a pretty strong wind. So it's late enough in the year, the boulder doesn't get the sun anymore. And with the wind, when I got to the boulder, it was like bone dry, condition for really good. was like, I'm like, this is, this is the day for sure. I really hope I've not missed my chance to see it up, but yeah, I managed to make it come together, which is very cool. And then, yeah, basically it felt completely dead since then. think it needs all the energy I had and like really pushed on that session. And then I had three rest days.

still felt pretty broken. went climbing yesterday and didn't feel amazing to be honest. So yeah, I like, I think I really appreciate it so much.

Tom (44:04)
Yeah, it's such a good effort that and I think it's also when you do feel actually quite broken after climbing something really hard, whatever the style is, it is normally a pretty good indicator that something has pushed you hard. And I've had the same experiences with things where actually maybe the ascent itself went okay. And I'm thinking, you know, could maybe do a bit a little bit harder. But then three days later, I still feel

quite off the pace and then a week later you're still off the pace and maybe even got ill as well and you're thinking, okay yeah yeah no no that thing was actually hard so it's interesting to hear that you had that experience on that and how do you now feel what with you know immediately after doing the second ascent but then a little bit time now has passed about the the grade and how this fits into the

Will B (44:34)
Yeah.

Okay.

Tom (45:03)
the bigger puzzle of this, I suppose, cohort of really hard boulders around the world that are sitting in that 9A range or V17, whatever grade you're sort of talking about, and also some of those potentially sandbagged 8B pluses. Where does this all fit in for you?

Will B (45:24)
Yeah, it's a really good question and something I've been thinking a lot about and I'm definitely going to probably ramble and struggle to answer this well. yeah, so it's like there's a few parts to it. I obviously this is the fastest I've sent Bose 9A Boulder, only eight sessions.

Tom (45:34)
It's fair.

And I was gonna say, yeah, eight session, yeah.

Will B (45:47)
eight sessions with Alphane taking, technically I think it was about 13, but realistically the first three of those that like year before or two where I like we were there because everything else was wet and we tried probably kind of almost the right hand line and I did basically no moves and didn't really achieve anything. So it was like Alphane was more I can say like a 10 session like serious sessions.

And then return the sleepwalker was 12 sessions. However, three of those sessions at least was like, turn up to the boulder. It's get warmed up, about to start the session. It starts raining and you have to pack up and go home because it's like the sandstone. So I feel like that actually could have gone quite a bit faster than it did if the weather had been better. Where I did obviously I had a lot because if you kept the replica sessions and then the sessions on the boulder.

There was like 10 replica sessions and 14 on the boulder. So that was like a lot more ahead if you're going from like session prompts. But this is the thing, spots I think fits in with like return and outfitting quite well, like similar amount of sessions. And also I think spots suits my style really well. So it should be like even though I maybe did it a bit faster that maybe like adds up and makes a bit of sense in comparison to the other two definitely didn't suit me as well.

Not that they're like not my style, but think spots was really my style. And in Burden, what I was thinking about is it definitely felt like the hardest I've done. However, I did it with basically the original sequence that Nalle used. And where now like there's been the ascent with the heel beta and there's been an ascent with the drop knee for the second move where you, instead of doing the hard pension match-in, which was through the red point crux for me.

Tom (47:30)
Mm.

Will B (47:41)
And then the hard third move, you'd like skip both moves and you cross straight over. And yeah, I don't know if I tried it that way. And that like, it would actually feel a bit easier, but like from a personal level of how they felt, definitely rate burden as the hardest and then it gets a bit harder to distinguish. I think, think spots could actually be in there as maybe the second, I don't know. And then maybe return and then everything.

Tom (48:06)
Yeah, okay.

Will B (48:07)
yeah, the thing is, I think thing that I'm sharing with is I don't know if the jumps between the greatest are correct. Like if the difference between 8C and 8C plus is correct and 8C plus and 9A is correct. I think those three grades are all a bit weird. I think because there's been a lot, been a long time of 8C being the hardest and 8C is getting sandbagged really badly. It's hard to tell because there's sometimes you'll try an 8C that you think, you know, I had a real chance at flashing that.

And then there's others that you try and they're like multiple sections in and you're thinking, well, I'm feeling nowhere close to this. And I feel like the 8C grade range is just so, it's just not, it's a lot better than it used to be, but still isn't quite right, which means the jump to 8C plus is really weird where the majority of 8C plus you'd have done or tried or looked at aren't really that much of a step above 8C. You kind of think, it just doesn't really feel like the next level. There's a few that are being like, yeah, this is really hard.

but like the thing is you can with quite a few of them be like, yeah, this definitely is harder than like the 8C of the crack. So it's definitely a level above. Is it enough of a jump to be the next grade? That's what I'm not sure about, but most of it does add up that like when you try it, like, yeah, this is harder than the one over there. So that makes sense that this is a harder grade. And like with spots of time, it's, it felt definitely harder than pretty much all the 8C plus you'd have done or tried. or like looked at.

Obviously not including Terra Nova because Andras is built differently. But yeah, comparing it to other short crimpy boulders, it's a step above the 8C+ and a step above the 8C or miles above the 8C. So it makes sense that it would sit in at 9A. It just depends how big the steps should actually be as opposed to then seeing the future. Does that make much sense?

Tom (50:01)
Yeah, it totally does. And I think this will resonate with a lot of people listening because I think it's a really logical way of looking at it and a very reasonable way of looking at it. And part of the issue that I always feel like with grading, especially at the top end, is that there's so many parts that go into the equation. There's a real lack of repeats and consensus on these things.

lot of the time these lines will be extra limited by things like conditions and projecting strategies because they are at the forefront of sort of human ability at present and I know in 20 years time we'll look back at 9a's and go wow people are climbing 9a's reasonably fast now and things move on but where it's at is that's another really big equation that fits into it and then also let's be objective about it this is

part of a lot of people's careers and grades make up and affect how your climbing career goes and where you sit in with a pecking order and some of your sort of ultimate long-term success. there's also that factor in there as well. And I suppose there isn't, I don't know, in my view, I'm not sure there is any simple solution to it other than, and I don't know whether you agree on this, is making sure that we

build a sort of standardized practice at the top end on any grading scale or climbing style, everyone is pretty open about discussing why they think a grade is that way and being really open to an actual conversation about it, not just statements. So that people come back and go, well, I don't know if I agree with that. It's enabled, you're able to engage with it and say,

Well, I know your opinion is different to mine, but I'm seeing it from this side. How do you feel about that, about that grading?

Will B (52:04)
yeah, for sure. think the absolute key, the only way it works is everyone actually just being honest and saying what they think. Also being able to not necessarily change your mind, like looking back at something you did 10 years ago and be like, well, you know what? I kind of can't imagine, I can't really remember how it felt, but maybe it's a great now. But for sure being able to actually like just be open and chat about things. I mean, like what Daniel Wood said when he regraded a lot of the 8Cs and he like upgraded a bunch of them.

They all seem like they're the correct grade now. No one seems to like debate whether they're 8C+ or not. And yeah, I think being able to look back is quite important. For instance, I had this, was this this year where I also wonder, so Aiden's 8C 8C plus in Wales got repeated again. So he put the first set up, graded 8C plus, I repeated it and found Onsighted better beta. At least I think the beta was better. And I then graded

or I gave my opinion that it was 8C. And it did go to third repeat, third repeat, completely disagrees with me and says there's absolutely no way it's 8C. It's definitely 8C plus. And that's absolutely fine. I feel like I could actually be quite wrong on that. And it probably, it probably is 8C plus. Like when I did it, felt not so bad and it kind of came together really quickly. So for me, it didn't seem right, maybe compared to some other 8Cs and stuff, maybe it actually is 8C plus. And that's fine. Like I gave them

I think just being honest and giving your honest opinions on being happy to like not take things to heart that much, if that makes sense. Whereas I feel like potentially like on Instagram it gets like that where you see the comments and people will be like really debating whether something is this great or the grade above and what someone's going to say about it. And yeah, I think this actually as long as everyone gives their own personal grade and you just get the consensus in the end, it's a lot better.

So I think, cause for instance, on the like the steps and the grays, was a while back when I did our thing. was after I first sent you the Boulder honey badger, that badger, both, which I'd given HCP plus. I remember saying, yeah, physically it was like between that and our thing, at the time didn't really seem much different. And then because of, think what I said then I've seen a lot of people being like, so it's, it's, it's honey badger line, eh?

Tom (54:10)
Yeah, I was gonna ask about that.

Will B (54:27)
Looking at that crag is that you have two 8B pluses that think are well established in the grade. don't think people really... There was one that people at a point kind of gave more 8B but I think everyone now is happy they're both 8B plus. And then we've got the two low starts headed to those, which are both 8B. I think one is soft 8B, I think the other is hard 8B. They both saw their first repeats actually this year as well, and confirmed grades. And they feel like a clear step above the originals.

And then you've got Honey Badger, which I gave 8C +, and it feels like a clear step above the 8Cs. So it works quite well in that category. Yeah, these are 8C+. These ones are definitely harder, so they can be 8Cs This one's definitely harder than those, so that's 8C+. It doesn't, to me, wouldn't make sense to then just dump that to 9A, and I think 8C +, is actually probably the right grade for it, I hope. But yeah, in that scenario, because it's all so condensed, and they're all right next to each other almost, you can very easily kind of see that

progressions between them. And it makes a lot of sense where they think especially of like a standalone boulder like spots of time even where you just go and it's the only thing there. You've got nothing at the crag to even vaguely compare it to because it's just the one line. So it gets a bit harder and you have to think about how your climbing days were on similar rock types and similar problems maybe a year or two ago. And I think that gets a lot harder to then compare between stuff. But yeah, I think always just kind of look for actual

clear steps and it being kind of obvious is the key.

Tom (55:58)
Yeah, yeah, think you spot on there with the kind of problems existing in either geographical isolation or time isolation is such a problem for trying to get grades really accurate because, you know, like from that same perspective you said about, I've gone back and tried something that I've done years later and then you go, was I right? But was I going well at the time? I can't really objectively quite define

how things were and then if you're trying to grade relatively to that thing that you did five years ago but it was in the same style you can't have a perfect snapshot of your performance five years ago so it does just end up being really quite subjective until you can have these few areas like Badger Cove where you have got things in the same style right next to each other same length

number of climbers that are all operating in that standard in the same country used to the conditions they know the crag like that's where I think you get a really good consensus and I feel like you'll have the same sort of things where you have magic wood as well where there's lots of people that will all group session stuff and they'll be there at the same season and they're all climbing about the same standard that's good chances of getting consensus

Will B (57:14)
But yeah, I think there's a good pre-existing consensus on sense. think in projects, this can be quite a difficult thing that can go like the opposite way as well, where I've seen definitely where you have like a bunch of very, very climbers are all trying this one project. And they like the majority of them all end up being like, this is next level, this is crazy hard. This has to be like a really hard grade for the person that it suits and that sends it is then

they can be influenced by the others quite easily, think. They'd be like, well, you know, all these guys are really strong and they go essentially hard, so maybe it's really hard. But actually it just didn't suit any of the other guys at all, if that makes sense. Like they're all just, like quite often it seems there's been a lot of homework that's been done recently that are very small boxes. And if you're like taller climber, it's going to be a lot harder. And if you're trying it with someone that's like a couple inches taller than you, they're going to have a much harder time.

Or like the other way around, guess you can have like a morpho boulder Where it's like good to get the consensus, but you have to also look for like the difference in sort of styles and betas and what actually favors with people.

Tom (58:23)
Yeah, yeah. I think probably there's a lot of people that are really interested in whether you're going back to Terranova anytime soon simply because you have been on so many 9a's and 8c pluses and had success recently and in both short boulder style and long boulder style.

And you might be quickly becoming like Adam did with the sport routes at the top end where everyone just start going, yeah, but what's the consensus from Adam? This is the grade that kind of matters. I suspect quite a lot of people are looking to you for some indicator on that.

Will B (59:04)
I mean, I was actually last night looking at booking trip out to the Czech I think that's today's job, actually decide whether I'm going or not and keep on going. Yeah, mean, the is the first trip I had to the Czech I find a lot of the hard boulders there. think I did. I think it was like six, eight sea boulders in that first trip, which was like a crazy amount. A lot of them, or five of them actually were at the limestone crags where Terra Nova is.

And like two, wait, hang on. Let me just have a quick thing. There's one, two, I think, am I missing one? Yeah, yeah. Three of them are on the same face as Terra Nova, which is ridiculous. It's like one of the most concentrated hard bits of bouldering in the world. And yeah, they all took like, I think the longest one took five days. And then just the like, the...

8C version of Terra Nova Nova, which was originally coming 8B pluses, that already took like five or six days or something to send and was absolute limit. And then I managed to do eight sessions that I did like essentially the last end link you would do, which so like you sit on the ground, but it's a bit to the right of where the 8C actually starts. And this I think is also an 8C link. It like two moves to the boulder.

Yeah, about two moves. like, this would be like, the first one could be maybe easier 8C and the second one's like hard 8C link. And that was absolute living. And that's before you even have to add in, say to the likes, I think it's like, something like six, seven move intro, which I managed to link together once, think, and felt like I had absolutely nothing in the time. Like you're at the beginning of where the hard 8C is. And I was like, yeah,

I've got nothing left. done like, I don't know. And maybe it isn't that bad. Maybe I'll learn it more. But at that point, I remember thinking like someone that like A, B grade range. And it's just like, it just seems so ridiculous that claim. But then whenever I spoke to Adam, he's always just kind of held me up. I'd be silly and it's not that bad. I don't know. But like the Vita he used, maybe it works a lot better for some of the sequences. Like the end, that sort of crazy like cross-through if you've watched the film, but he does.

Tom (1:01:24)
Hmm.

Will B (1:01:25)
He wrecked it. I can't remember exactly what he said it was, but.

It was maybe like it was even 7C plus or 8B plus, but I remember if those two moves took me multiple sessions to do. And the way that he did it is just it doesn't feel possible. I think it's incredible. And yeah, that climbing for me definitely feels like it probably is the hardest thing I've tried. It's hard to know because it's so long like the individual moves maybe aren't as bad as on. Some of the others, which is why spots of.

time was so cool and I was so psyched for it because it's light burden, it's a pure boulder problem, it's just a couple really hard moves rather than with, I feel like a lot of the hard boulders recently have been quite a bit more power endurance where they've been like kind of added low starts like returning the sleep locker. mean, Outfain obviously is a standalone, but again, it's quite a lot of moves. think it's like 10 moves or something through the hard climbing. So the same with, I haven't obviously tried it, but Megatron and

Tom (1:02:01)
Mm-hmm.

Will B (1:02:29)
that you saw, they're all like quite long boulders. So yeah, having the short ones is super fun.

Tom (1:02:35)
Yeah, yeah, I bet. And I think that's also an important part of the kind of grading opinion equation for a lot of people watching you performing at the moment is that you have got experience and judgment on both long and short and you come from a competitive bouldering and route climbing background. So you should on paper have quite a fair opinion.

both those sides because I think there is potential definitely for know climber types for your long end more endurancey types to overgrade or just think that things are really hard on the short end and then vice versa anything that requires endurance and is 15 moves plus if someone's just a great short end power climber they're just gonna find it harder to hang for 15 moves or so whereas you've you've got the the joy of doing both of them

Will B (1:03:30)
Although I feel like I've really been lacking on the endurance training to be honest in the last year or so, so I'm kind of worried about that.

Tom (1:03:31)
So, so.

Yeah, but it always comes back quickly though, doesn't it, every time we do it?

Yeah, so you've got a potential trip to Czech to go and try Terranova. And then you've got Japan coming up very shortly. That's actually in the diary. So this sending of spots was kind of pressured, right?

Will B (1:03:49)
Yes.

Yeah, had flights through Japan, but that was it. I hadn't booked anything else because I kind of in my head was like, man, what's that like, so whether it's good for spots, it, just fail, it, stay here and just keep like working it. But yeah, I've been planning this trip to Japan for quite a long time, like the entire year basically. I've always wanted to go, it looks incredible and I the time and I was like, yeah, it makes sense.

But yeah, that plan for mid November to mid December. So going for like a month. And yeah, the plan of going to like, Mizuraki to try floating because it looks like one of the best hard boulders in the world. And like the other hard ones around there like decided and then the low star undecided.

Tom (1:04:38)
Yeah.

Will B (1:04:43)
This is a thing. It's really weird. I've not booked a trip in a long time where I go somewhere kind of for not a project. Like pretty much all my trips recently, I was so much trying. And like one project I'm focused on the whole trips around. So it's kind of weird to leave the trip open being like, I'd like to go down to the coast and check out all the insane coastal boulders like a Swan V, V13 called Bring the Sea, which like, if people basically looked that up.

It's just every boulder in that area looks as insane as that. It's amazing. I'm going to psyched the only thing is what really worried me of that place. And I think they've already had like kind of two earthquakes and tsunamis. And it's like right the southern coast. So it's like the, guess the most hit part of Japan maybe, which kind of scared me. So I'm not convinced I'm going there yet, but like I do want to check it out. But yeah, I might just get sucked into trying Floatin

Tom (1:05:32)
Mmm.

Be careful Will, we can't lose you. The nation can't lose you.

Will B (1:05:43)
Yeah, I mean, I don't know they'd be alright. I think they know what they're doing over there to be fair. But yeah, I might just get sucked into like working on something the whole trip or something. don't know. I've got a couple of things that I really want to try. Like I was watching a video the other day and because everyone kind of does it, it's even a foot down like swing or just like the campus jump save when it's had two ascents, I think. But.

Tom (1:05:50)
Yeah.

Will B (1:06:09)
I was watching and I was like, I wonder, is it possible with like the sort of cheat heel, just start like ninja flick, giant, like kick your leg, like almost above your head up to the side to the like the rail out on left. If you could just get your heel there, you could just like hook on and just like reach through it. I feel like I'll get there and that'll just look like the most ridiculous thing I've ever said. But it's, know, the sort of thing where you're just watching and you've never been there. I wonder if there's like something else I can do on this. But yeah, really excited for that.

Tom (1:06:22)
Mm.

Yeah, well that will be, I guess the how much do go for it flash strategy of which technique do you use.

Will B (1:06:51)
But yeah, think flashing on that boulder would be really hard. Especially because the top out is really difficult. Like it doesn't really get shown so much in the videos, but I think it's really easy to actually drop the top out. Which is, yeah, I think for flash would be really, really hard. And then kind of the main goal that I've had going on in back of my head now for like two years is Excalibur. I'm still really psyched on that.

Tom (1:06:55)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah.

Will B (1:07:20)
It's definitely grew in Arco, the 90 plus. And yeah, that's like one of the things I'm mostly keen for, the weather is just horrendous. Like I've been checking the forecast every week this entire year. And there's not been a week yet where the roots being even dry and cold enough to be in good condition. So.

Tom (1:07:40)
Yeah, it's been a really bad year for Europe this year, like, think just non-stop.

Will B (1:07:43)
Yeah, and after your time, basically, thinking I'm hoping I'll come back wherever will be good. And then that's kind of the winter goals is to try and go there and actually try and have some decent time on it and try and get that done. I think I've had three trips now and all three of them, it's been pretty wet, which is going to suck. But yeah.

Tom (1:08:04)
Yeah, well, it'll be nice to see you back in in route mode again and get.

Will B (1:08:08)
I mean, it's not that long, but yeah.

Tom (1:08:12)
That'd be good. then...

Will B (1:08:13)
There's only 18 moves I think, the hard climb.

Tom (1:08:17)
Yeah, it's like a long board style sport project, isn't it?

Will B (1:08:21)
Exactly. Yeah, you basically just do two boulders on top of each other.

Tom (1:08:26)
just really flipping hard ones.

And it just goes to show how hard that is as well considering that you've been going really well and it's not gone easily.

Will B (1:08:36)
I almost the crux of this route is the fact that it's split up by the sort of quote unquote rest in the middle. Where, you know, if you're a proper endurance climber, like Stefano chills for like two minutes or so in this end video, I think you're just hanging out. Whereas for me, it's like, yeah, I get a couple of shakes max. It doesn't really feel like it's doing a lot, to be honest. They're not good enough holds to really be resting on for me. So it's essentially

just doing the boulders back to back, which is really hard. But I don't think the boulders themselves are actually like they're not they're they're hard, but they're not like super like several. think it's like a B is the first folder and then like 8B plus slash C is a second. So individually they're OK to do. But yeah, linking them together is really, really challenging. Cool route though.

Tom (1:09:28)
Yeah, yeah, like really aesthetic.

Will B (1:09:32)
Yeah, it's like, and also for a limestone route, like there, there is one or two holds that are reinforced and there's like one or two where you do your arm, like a bit of the glue that you hold. But for a limestone route, it's pretty much completely pure, which is amazing. Yeah, super fun. The moves are amazing. And it's like just the right amount it holds on it as well for it to work, which is cool.

Tom (1:09:53)
Yeah, Well, to finish up, because that's been great talking about grades and projects and future things and spots, I definitely still had a couple more questions that were on my mind, but they actually match up somewhat well with some of the questions I had from everyone on Instagram. So...

Will B (1:10:00)
Yeah.

Tom (1:10:13)
How do you fancy answering a few listener questions at the end? Does that sound good?

Will B (1:10:17)
Say it's good.

Tom (1:10:19)
Okay. First one.

which straight away when I put that up this morning, everyone's been asking it and I haven't really touched on specifically in this interview is basically V18 when.

Will B (1:10:29)
I mean, like full stop or from me, I guess would be the interesting one from like full stop. think. I don't know if anyone's actually working one really right now. I don't know if any projects going on that people like, is this the thing? I think it's one thing to sort of be a bit confused about the grade bands being maybe a bit narrow 8B plus to nine eight, but you can kind of be like, yeah, I think this is harder than the 8B plus or nine eight seems fair. But I think to establish a new grade, has to be like a full year step above everything else.

So I don't think anyone's in the position that they've been trying a really hard project for a really long time that would definitely warrant that. So I don't know when V18 will be. would like to think it would be in the next couple of years. But I don't know of anything that's happening right now that I think would be like a couple of weeks or months away. Personally, it would be like my long-term project is trying to establish like a V18. Ideally, in

Britain ideally in Scotland, but yeah, I've struggled to find anything really. To be fair, there's a project at Dunvey which could be really hard. It felt like of two 8B plus moves just like in a row, but it's a bit rubbish. It's like a sit start thing.

Tom (1:11:45)
Is that by Pongo?

Will B (1:11:48)
Yeah, so I've been trying a project on that which essentially starts pretty much the same place, but you just go like diagonally up and right and it adds like free. I get four technically brand new three brand new really hard moves like which is super cool and then you join this existing 8A which is was the first day at 8 Scotland and was my first day. So it's like historic and super special to me. So yeah, this is a this is a cool one, but I feel really close that I think that's going to be around 8C.

potentially 8C plus. I was assuming it would be 8C, but considering I keep getting shut down by it, I don't know, it be a bit harder. But yeah, if you basically start in the same place, but then go straight up the face, it's, yeah, it feels possible, but absolutely desperate. But maybe not the sort of perfect line that you'd want for the first V18

Tom (1:12:39)
I know that's always the dilemma, isn't it? When you break a big new grade, you kind of want it to be cool. Yeah, okay. Right, next question. Let's see what else has been... there's quite a few here as well on Arrival of the Birds.

Will B (1:12:41)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not that motivated for it. I remember looking at that with Sean Rabaton, Dave Graham back in 2021, maybe, think. Because we were just wondering around when it was when. He was basically showing us all these different projects around. I remember we all looked at that because it was an old project back then.

I feel like I get it. It looks really hard, the holds look really bad, I don't know. It's very much like... There's a lot of slot crimps, which I know I would struggle to fit my fingers into very well. I don't know. Maybe if I try it, I'd get more into it, but I'm a bit worried that it would really mess my skin up and I'd have quite a hard time actually projecting it. Currently, sweating in Switzerland, I feel like...

Tom (1:13:33)
Hmm.

Will B (1:13:47)
If I would go in there, would be more for like looking at my own projects rather than maybe repeating at the moment. So potentially I'll try it. But yeah, I've not got like plans to go for at the moment.

Tom (1:14:00)
Okay. A good question here, which I was gonna ask you earlier today, but I didn't quite get around to it, but I think is an interesting one. And I don't think I've ever asked you this just like when we've been chatting, climbing kind of in a non-interview way, but do you see any...

broad ranging patterns of grading in the US versus the UK versus Europe. And let's just call it bouldering. Let's keep it because that's the topic of what we've been talking about. Like, is the grading actually across the board very level? And it's just these outliers that everyone kind of gets fixated on or are grades on the whole harder in one region over another.

Will B (1:14:46)
So I mean, I've only claimed it one place in the US, but I'm not sure I can really comment that well. I mean, I can obviously talk about Red Rocks, I suppose.

I think in general the grades line up pretty well. I think a lot of places in the not everywhere, but quite a few places in the UK. The grades are definitely harder, which has been a mix of I think old rivalries with First Ascent, specifically in Scotland and then. Around like the lakes, there's a lot of them. I guess grading, which has been pretty brutal.

Whereas there's some places like that. I don't think the peaks necessarily hard graded, maybe certain frags and some like there's some boulders I needed. I wanted to like of my first sense. I wanted to regrade at the tour, which I definitely gave the wrong stuff. But I think in general the grades are too bad. I think the UK would probably have harder than maybe most places, but only in certain places. And I think a lot of the grades do hold up pretty well. Climbing in Europe.

Tom (1:15:37)
Hmm.

Will B (1:15:56)
I in general the grades felt quite consistent throughout the different crowds I've been. There's at least this is folder wise. Like between Switzerland, Pond, the Czechs. All felt quite quite on it I think between them. It didn't feel really that different. It'll be obviously the outliers as you're saying. The odd problems are definitely way harder to get out and over for me. But then the other ones there all felt.

correct grade and the check.

and then red rocks

I know. think most, it was a mix though, because some grades there felt really hard, some of the classics, where the climbs were like kind of sloping and got polished, whereas some felt really quite chilled. I think it was just maybe a bit more, like in its area of itself, it was a bit more like uneven between different lines. Like there was some areas where you had like a couple V12s.

there was like three V12s and each one felt like a completely different grade. And you're like, this is so weird. And you're like, they are different styles, but at the same time, like, this can't be the same, right? But I imagine on the average, it's probably quite similar to how Yurt felt, I think. I've obviously not found anywhere else in the US, so I can't really comment on that. But yeah, some of the grades there felt pretty stiff, some felt pretty soft.

Tom (1:17:01)
you

Will B (1:17:27)
which I think is pretty similar most places. I felt like it was a bit more, sort of it swung a bit more, whereas most places in Europe felt a bit, feel like more consistent maybe. Whereas it was maybe a bit more like over there, there was some that were really hard and some that were really soft at the grade. There was always a bit of a gamble as to what you're going to get. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Tom (1:17:37)
Hmm.

I think that can make it fun sometimes though. And it makes for great post-crag chat afterwards when everyone's gone out and had a day and you're just talking about things going, what was that grade all about? Who did that? And then you kind of want to go into the first Ascensionist and then you can have a massive debate about whether it suited people's styles. And I think it's fun. I kind of like the randomness sometimes and that's why I think it is important to not get too stewed up about the whole thing.

Will B (1:18:09)
Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I think on the whole, the grades are pretty, pretty average to around the place, which is cool.

Tom (1:18:24)
Yeah, okay, good. Right, one last question. Let's have a look. Okay, I've got one from one of our coaches here. Billy, Billy Ridal who I interviewed on the podcast last week. His question is, can you invest in a better camera and a film crew?

Will B (1:18:38)
nice.

better. Yeah, this is the thing, like I love when you see the comments like, I really hope it's not like phone footage again or something. Like, like, let's make sense. With Spots of Time, was one of like, the most, it was such like a nice experience trying to hold it, even being up there in one person by myself, so relaxed and chilled. And it's like a really like nice place to hang out with. There's other places I guess it's like, it's like just

Tom (1:18:54)
you

Will B (1:19:14)
I wouldn't mind having maybe someone film when I was there, but, you know, like sometimes it's nice not to have that. And also it depends if you've got something that's kind of coming out, being like, well, maybe I'll just come film you and potentially if I, if we can sell it to someone, then I'll make money. But it's okay if I don't. Whereas if you're organizing to always have someone come film, then, you know, it costs a lot of money to actually pay. And like, yeah, I don't, I don't really make that much, I suppose.

So yeah, filming and editing obviously, because it's a profession itself is expensive. I feel like I'm getting better at the editing of the film. I don't think it's that bad anymore, but yeah, it's definitely something I work on. The main thing that I'm getting next, I'm going to go and buy I think is some proper microphones because I don't know, I've realized basically everywhere I climb is like either by a river or really windy or by the sea. And yeah, the audio always sends.

terrible and I apologize to anyone that watches my videos, I'm sorry. That is something that I'm working to fix for sure.

Tom (1:20:20)
work in progress and we'll be able to hear the crisp snap of an oat cake or a flake of parmesan when you've got those new sweet mics on

Will B (1:20:22)
Yeah.

I don't know if I'll be that good with my head team but we'll get there in the future.

Tom (1:20:34)
You

one last question. No, I'm going to throw in a little bonus one and then I'm going to let you go. Bosi Blizzard.

Will B (1:20:45)
Yeah.

Tom (1:20:46)
You've got a chalk brand.

Will B (1:20:48)
Yeah, yeah, super excited. mean, as I was, I guess I was saying earlier in the podcast, I have really sweaty skin. I've always really struggled. Essentially for me, climbing gets good when it's under 10 degrees and windy or under five degrees. And for most of the year in most places, it's not like that. And I've just always really struggled. So yeah, I spent about a year basically working and trying different sort of chalks and the sort of manufacturing processes and everything. And yeah, thought.

Got my own brand of chalk, Bosi Blizzard that I think is absolutely amazing. And like for me, it works really well. It's obviously what I sent spots with. It's what I've done everything basically this year with. And yeah, I've been having sessions in Portugal of all places, which is pretty roasting and actually been doing pretty well. So yeah, it's helped me a lot. yeah, I really stand by it. Unfortunately, because it is me like boxing and sending it, it's...

Currently it's unavailable because it's all done in Sheffield and I'm up in Edinburgh. But when I'm back from my next trip, that I'll post like I've got an Instagram and I'll post updates saying that it's available and yeah, people can check out if they want. I mean, it currently it's only shipped UK and then sometimes America and South Korea because yeah, Brexit customs. I'm not very like all of this is very new and navigating it's very difficult.

Tom (1:22:12)
Well, you definitely know that you've got every bit of sympathy from me knowing what it's like to try and do this whole business work thing on the side of climbing and everything like that. But I'm really psyched that you've started doing it and everything like that. And I think it's a great move. And hopefully people will be psyched by the fact that you've developed something that actually makes a difference in climbing performance. And I think it's really cool to do.

Will B (1:22:17)
Yeah, I bet.

Yeah, I'm super excited for it. yeah, that's the thing for me, like, it isn't necessarily like as a sort of, you know, pure business venture. Like for me, I made it because it felt like I needed better talk and it helps me. So that's the win that I've got from it. So I'm happy.

Tom (1:22:54)
unlimited chalk supplies. well, it's been really good chatting again today and nice to kind of catch up on all sorts of different things and good luck with if you do go and get that flight booked later today to Czech Republic and if not then definitely Japan and I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

Will B (1:22:56)
Yeah, exactly.

Thanks so much. Yeah, definitely the luck if I'm to Terra Nova. The thing is, every time I go there's so many really good and cool routes and boulders and lights there that I'm like, really want to try these. I just don't have the skin after trying Terra Nova to try them. I feel like I'm now committed that I need to just try Terra Nova. I'm like, in two minds every time I go, because I'm like, should I just try something else? But yes, it'd be a cool one to do.

Tom (1:23:45)
Yeah.

Will B (1:23:45)
And yeah, I'll keep you updated if ever I had a or and prepare and everything.

Tom (1:23:49)
Yeah, definitely. You're meeting up with one of the other lattice athletes, Jane, is that right? When you go out to Czech

Will B (1:23:55)
Yeah, yeah, so she is. She's in the Czech think, literally till maybe next Wednesday. And then I think she's going to trip to Switzerland potentially. So yeah, hopefully if we go out, it would have to be pretty soon basically. And then we'll get like session or two together, which would be really good. Yeah, she's, she's been putting real good sessions in, I think. And she's actually like starting, it's all starting to come together, which is super cool. Yeah, excited to go see her and have some sessions on it with her as well would be amazing.

Tom (1:24:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, cool, cool. yeah, lovely to chat and hope everyone who's listening has enjoyed this today and just check in soon and me and Will will keep you updated on next progress at some point in future.

Will B (1:24:39)
Yeah, thanks so much for having me in the open and rambling to. I should have sounded OK.

Tom (1:24:44)
That's all great. Thanks Will.

Will B (1:24:47)
Thank you.