Evolution of Grades & Psychology of Climbing at the Limit with Steve McClure

In this two-part episode,  Tom Randall sits down with Steve Mcclure , one of the UK's most accomplished rock climbers, to discuss the evolution of climbing grades and the psychology of operating at the limit. Steve's remarkable career includes first ascents and repeats across bouldering, sport climbing, trad climbing, and even big walling. 

His notable achievements include ‘Mutation’ 9a+/5.15a at Raven Tor which was upgraded from 9a/5.14d making it one of the first of this grade in the world, and the first ascent of ‘Rainman’ 9b/5.15b at Malham Cove, the first of this grade in the UK.

Topics Covered:

• Operating at the Limit.
• Key Factors: What makes climbers excel or struggle at the limit?
• How climbing grades have changed over his career and the industry's influences.
• The roles of gear, training, psychology, and tactics in grade evolution.
• Elements of training that had the biggest effect on Steve’s performance.
• Predictions on where climbing training is headed and emerging opportunities.

As a thank you to our listeners, we have an exclusive offer: Get 15% off our Lattice Training Plans with the code PODCAST15.

The Lattice jingle is brought to you by Devin Dabney, music producer of the outdoor industry who also hosts the American Climbing Project.

Transcript

Tom (00:00)
Hello to everyone who has tuned into the podcast today. I have a guest on the show who, as I recall, has maybe not been on the Lattice podcast for at least two or three years. I sort of feel like it might have been online during the COVID years that I talked to this guy last. And this guy is Steve McClure.

as of the British Isles and he is one of the, if not the most accomplished rock climber of all time in the UK. His first ascents and repeats on home turf and abroad bridge across the disciplines of bouldering, sport climbing, track climbing and big walling. And his physical peak in performance might be thought of as his first ascent of Rain Man, a 9B.

at Malham in 2017 after 127 sessions of working across 10 different seasons. Yep, he is someone who is not afraid of a proper long -term projecting battle, which is going to be something really interesting to have a bit of a dive into and talk about some of the psychology associated with that as well. However, this number is only the surface of his sports ascent that he's made because he's also done multiple 9A's.

8B plus onsite, which also include both single pitch and multi -pitch styles. And aside from this, he's also bolded up to around 8B slash plus. So that kind of V13, V14 range. And he's got one of the most impressive trad climbing CVs in the country. And this is a country that prides itself on gear placing finesse and bold climbing styles. Quick E11 repeats, which is right at the cutting edge. EA E7 onsites.

These were all achieved over multiple years, which very, very few have matched. On an international level, Steve has had a long period of his career right at the top and has always been recognized as someone who had all the important facets of performance in his bag of tricks. That kind of elusive combination of physical ability, technical prowess, psychological strength and tactical experience. Something that many of us also recognize in someone like Adam Ondra.

So with this in mind, I wanted to get Steve into the podcast studio to talk about what he thinks is important about operating at the limit. So the limit of performance, what matters, what makes a difference. And in conjunction with that, I'm also going to be talking to him about what he thinks about the evolution of climbing grades across the span of his long career in climbing, which in particular references the factors of the industry have changed and which ones have had the

biggest impact on grade evolution. So Steve, after that intro, welcome to the studio podcast after, well, a long time. Hello there. It's a pleasure to be here. And I think you're right. COVID was the last time we spoke. So that's like three or four years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Like I know things come around, don't they? Man, they certainly do. Yeah. No, it's a pleasure to be here. good. Well,

I guess the first question that I'm going to use to frame what we're going to talk about is this terminology of the limit or the cutting edge. You're someone who's operated in this zone, whether it's personally or at international standards for a long, long time. So what do you think the limit or the cutting edge actually means? So I'm going to, I'm going to steal a quote here, which I heard from Niall Grimes.

also known as Grimer and he he replied back to a post on Instagram that somebody was saying like it's really tough this climb I'm trying it's really really hard I feel like it's right right on the limit it's right you know we're really pushing the margins and Grimer replied and said climbing lives in the margins and I thought what that is totally perfect it really like resonated with me and I realized that what I

I'm looking for when I'm trying hard stuff is that margin, that like total sliver between success and failure. And the closer it is and the narrower that sliver is, the more buzz I get out of it. You know, if it's too easy, it doesn't feel like I'm getting that kick. Obviously you can step over it and you've gone too far, but it lives in the margins. That's it. That's like, I suddenly find myself almost defined by that quote. that's really interesting. Yeah.

If anyone who is listening to this and thinking, well, I get a kick all the time in my climbing, how do you think that they would separate away from something that just simply gives them a kick and a buzz in climbing versus something which is actually their limit? Because I feel like a lot of people could sort of confuse that definition of how they find their limit. I mean, I suppose the thing is it's really hard to find your limit.

I don't think many people find that true limit. We're talking like long -term red points there. But the beauty of climbing, I guess many sports, but let's obviously use climbing as an example, is you can operate right on the limit all the time. So if you find a route which you think you can do next red point, or maybe it's going to take you five red points, you can always try really, really hard.

and just to say, get it. And you kind of bring down the time period you're going to try to do it to operate in that limit zone. So, so I guess I'm kind of always operating in that limit. You know, when I'm trying to onsite something, I'll, I'll try the hardest thing I think I can try. And if I fall off it, I think, can I do that next go and try and do it next goal? It's always going to be in that small margin, but whether people get a kick out of

operating that way or not is it's different for different people. Some people don't like to have that element of doubt especially when you you know you're really sort of cutting it down to the the toughest margin you can because there's gonna be an element of failure in there and if there's an element of failure maybe people don't like to fail or it depends on how you define failure anyway like for me if I don't get something it just means I can have another go which is great.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting way of framing the failure aspect with being that limit because I've definitely noticed over the years that those of us who enjoy the limit, I think frame up failure in a very, very different way, almost in an overly positive way. So I've noticed quite clearly that as I've got older, and this might be to do with the fact that I've got less roots that I'm really motivated for, if I...

fall off something and I've noticed this a couple of times recently when I've fallen off I've actually thought good I can have another go like not depressed or sad or disappointed at all but actually quite pleased that I get to have another chance obviously I want to give it everything and if I had done it I'd have been super psyched but the fact that I hadn't got it there was no failure at all and I think maybe that's quite mentally freeing I mean you know what is failure in climbing? You don't mean failing

You know, it's just a bit of rock. So how can you fail? You can't. I call it deferred, yes. Yeah, yeah, it's just deferred. I mean, the thing is we're there to have a great time trying things we want to try. And ultimately, if we extend that, I don't see any negative in it. I guess if you've got like a very defined time period, you're on a trip or whatever, and you don't get to have another go, then that could be quite disappointing or whatever.

But when you've got an open ended time period, then yeah, great. Just keep it going. Yeah. And you've been climbing, you know, most of your life and you've been climbing at your limit for a good section of your climbing career. Do you think that the ability to be able to operate at your limit efficiently or effectively has improved with time? And I say this with the fact that lots of people listening will say, whenever I'm at my limit,

things fall apart, my technique goes to part, my head doesn't feel as good. I suddenly feel way more kind of flash pumped than I do normally when I'm training. Does that evolve over time? So I would say one of my sort of main strengths in climbing is my try hard. So I can really turn it on when I flick that switch. Many times I'll be trying something and I'll be thinking, it's too hard this, like I can't do the moves or there's no way I'll string this all together. And then when it's like go time.

suddenly, wow, it's happening now and I can flick that switch. I think a lot of people can as well. They've got that try hard, but some people can't access it quite so much. In fact, some people, when it feels like they have to try hard, they actively sort of push against it. It's like, whoa, no, no, I don't like this at all. Take, you know, I don't want to go down that zone. I like things to be a bit more comfortable. So they'd rather maybe work things a bit more, practice a bit more so that when the send comes, it's a bit more like, that was all right that.

I like my sense to be like, whoa, that was so close. Like you didn't get any margin in there at all. That was like the limit. That gives me the biggest buzz. I think as I've got older, I've noticed that when I walk away from something having ticked it, if it was really close, I'll remember that for years. It'll stay with me forever. If it was a bit of a sort of like, it was all right in the end, then I'll probably forget all about it. So I'm looking for that margin. And as I've got older,

I've found it easier to engage that sort of try hard and maybe become more important as the other things start to slip down. Yeah, I think some people have got it. Some people haven't got it. Maybe the key to it is to not put too much weight on the success. If you define success of getting up, whatever, it just doesn't matter that much. Yeah, I think I definitely resonate with this feeling around not associating it with the outcome or the success slash failure.

and more about the process because I know one of my, I suppose my weak points in climbing is I can get really quite frustrated if I went to an experience and I was expecting to try hard and I never even got to try hard. Like a cock up. I suddenly got more scared than I thought I was gonna be. Or just something kind of derails it and then I fall off and I'm so disappointed. I never got to get into the zone, the try hard.

limit zone whereas if I got into that zone and I still fail yeah that was yeah so good I suppose for a lot of people it might be working out why they might not be able to get into that zone and I mean for a lot of if we're talking like route climbing for a lot of people it's fear fear is is you know it's it's the mind -killer as they said in June you know it's you've got to be able to for me it's analyze when you need

to have some fear. You shouldn't have fear, but when you need to take care, when danger is real, be rational about it. And when you can actually sort of separate rational and irrational fear, then you're in a much stronger place. And you can often do that just literally from the floor and having a good think through it. Certainly you'll know if you are an analytical person whether there is any real danger. And if you can say to yourself, well, actually there isn't.

This is not a dangerous climb at all. It's completely safe. That arms you way better to be able to try really hard. Because you know, how crippling is it when you get scared? Yeah, massively. It just stops you dead. You know, you're moving towards soloing. You know, I'm sure a lot of climbers are basically soloing. They don't think they are. They've got a rope and some protection. But in terms of what they're going to go for, it's at solo level. So yeah, once you can make that distinction.

then you're armed better. Yeah. And what do you think for you over your climbing career has been the elements of at the limit or the cutting edge, which would be most challenging for you that you've thought, yeah, I need to constantly work on that, getting better in that zone. Because you clearly are good at it. We know you're good in that zone, but there must still be things that you've wanted to work on or you have worked on.

In terms of being able to get into that mind frame of pushing. Or just get more out of being in that zone, whether it's a technical thing, a physical thing, a mind thing, any of it. I mean, I feel as though the technique side, that just gets better with age. I don't feel like you... As long as you keep on practicing it, as long as you keep on getting out there, technique just comes. It just keeps on getting better, which is one of the beauties.

of such a technical complicated sport. I have found over the years that if I climb a lot in one style or indoors or something, I have to sharpen those outdoor tools a little bit more. So I have to make sure I'm keeping my hand in as it were. I think that would be expected by most people, but I think it's obviously forgotten by many people. So there's a lot of people these days will train indoors. Right, I've got...

I'm going out to a trip to so -and -so, I'm going to train really, really hard indoors and then go outside for the first time in six months and super strong, really fit and like, wow, I got so shut down. What happened? And I think that needs to be remembered that the two, indoors and outdoors, are very different, but also different styles of climbing, bouldering, route climbing, trad, limestone, gritstone, they're different. You've got to be able to just remember that and make sure you keep your hand in.

Otherwise you'll derail yourself pretty quick. Yeah. And when it comes to those things like bouldering, sport climbing, trad climbing, which loads of people who listen to this podcast do come from quite different backgrounds. I'd be interested to know whether you feel like there's differences in the makeup of in air quotes, the limit in those different areas. Cause you know, just now you alluded to the mind part of it and the fear aspect. And we all know that that's a lot bigger.

trad climbing for example versus bouldering, but maybe there's a different type of fear. How's that? Wow. So that's, that's really interesting. So I find the sort of the mind part of it and the getting in the zone part of it really different between bouldering and route or sport climbing. Totally different. So what I want out of my climbing, what I'm really looking for is being in that kind of zone where you, you're just absolutely moving completely.

in that zone, you're so focused and nothing else matters and you're like a super computer just getting it done. I can't get it through bouldering. I just cannot access it. I don't know whether it's because I can't access it because I can't, I need some lead in period, maybe, I don't know. But I find I, because bouldering, when I say bouldering, I mean, typical block boulders. If it's a long traversy kind of boulder problem, just basically a route without a rope, then I'm fine. But if it's like two or three moves.

I just can't get into that zone. I can't try hard. Maybe it's because it's... because I've got to try so hard. Maybe physically that's not what I can do. I can't... I'm not physically super strong and I can't access the super strong physical try hard. Maybe it's all about the mind. In fact, the more I'm talking about it now, the more I'm thinking that is actually it. It's all in the mind and it's not in the body. So when it's all about the body, I can't do it.

So that's maybe why I'm not a boulderer. You know, two or three moves, I can't get there. And maybe I can't even start. So I'm at the bottom of it thinking, God, like this is going to be so flipping hard. I pull on, it's so hard, I'm off. Yeah. I mean, I often wonder whether a lot of us who have had our professional climbing careers have almost self -selected, filtered ourselves.

for the things that we have both the physical ability for versus the psychological ability for. Because if I look at my climbing career, I've totally put myself into a niche where I have an advantage and I've got rid of as many of my disadvantages as possible compared to other professional climbers. So, I mean, 100%, surely that's got to be a thing because our sport is so wide. We've got this like umbrella of rock climbing, which, you know.

until recently included indoors as well. But you know, you've got climbing. It's massive. You know, it's huge. And we can't be expected to be brilliant at all of it. I think, you know, you go back to like the eighties and climbers kind of were good at all of this, but now not many are good at everything. So it would be expected that you would channel. But because it's been under the umbrella, all of it's been under the umbrella for so long, it's kind of assumed that like, surely you must be good at all of it. I think going forward into the future,

I mean, already now, but going forward further, people will be very much more specific about what they do. I mean, now we've definitely got boulders and we've got sport climbers. It's going to go even more so. Yeah, I think we've... Nothing wrong with that. No, not at all. And I think we've seen this happen over time, always, that you've got people who specialize in an area will generally achieve more in that area. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just always been a depressed.

grade, all the grade has evolved, all the difficulties evolved over time. And you do occasionally get exceptional people who seem to bridge more things than the normal. And yes, I think it's, it's good now that it's more accepted. I don't think it was so accepted before that you would be a boulder or whatever, or a trad climber or a sport climber. You know, people were always like, he's not an all rounder though. It wasn't such a thing.

Whereas now you could literally never put a harness on and that's totally fine. That's totally fine. It should be totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Well, I mean, I remember when people would continue to ask you, what are you going to do in the mountains? When are you going on expedition to use that trad climbing experience that you've built up on single pitch, for example. And that slowly faded away and it was totally okay to be a single pitch trad climber. And now I think we've gone down the route where people just climb indoors.

You still get what's he done on grit though. That's always going to be the final answer. Yeah, always in the UK anyway. Absolutely. Well, in Sheffield. What was it on grit? well, they're not a real climber then. Yeah. I wonder where they say that in Fontainebleau. Maybe, what isn't font? The locals say that kind of stuff. Well, you always get the locals. It's very tongue in cheek and definitely not a thing anymore now, is it? No. I've done nothing on grit at all. You're not tall enough.

Good point, yes. I like to think that. No, I mean, there's some things that are better when you're short. So that is one of the things that we're talking about, like focus and mindset and getting into it. Grit just didn't, it doesn't really do it for me. There's some great routes that I'm motivated to do and try and have done, but they tend to be longer, more route -like. So if it's going to be, you know, like 20 foot of rambling on a V -diff to four death moves above a spiky landing, that's not getting me psyched.

I can see why it would for others, but for me, it just doesn't get me going. Yeah, yeah. So talking of at the limit and the cutting edge and performance and things like that, and your own perspectives on that over the years and the facets of what make up the limit and operating well within it. I want to kind of move a little bit sideways into, I suppose, the thing that people recognise as

the limit, which is grade and the marker for that. So to frame up before I go into your views on the industry as a whole and what's changed over time and over the decades that you've been in this career, I think I wanted to ask first of all is in terms of climbing grade and your progression over your climbing career, what do you think have been the

the key landmarks or the key approaches that you've taken over that time where you've gone, that resulted in my sort of quantum leap into the next section of grade bracket or, or, you know, performance standard in your climbing. Or I suppose going with that, has it never been leaps? Has it always been just a tiny little nudge every single year? No, mine has had like noticeable monumental leaps.

Probably more than just about anybody, I would say. Like I've lept completely. So I have been climbing like for half a century now, which sounds like a very long time, doesn't it? It does, yeah, yeah. That's a long time. But certainly between the ages of like two and 24, it was all trad. It was like literally no sport climbing there at all. And I had no idea of what I could do with my climbing. And I definitely...

I put myself into a certain bracket of climber and certain grade of climber which I think is maybe quite an interesting thing to ponder as climbers, you know, where do we see we are and is that actually where we really are or where we really could be? So like, you know, I would never have imagined I could climb 8a for instance. I just wouldn't have dreamed. That was just too hard. There's no way I could climb that. But as it turned out, I was more than capable of climbing 8a.

Even when I was thinking that, nevermind after I'd done some training and some work towards it. So the first leap for me came when I discovered sport climbing. So I already had all the tools in terms of like go for it, finger strength probably. Probably didn't have some like actual brute strength and fitness, but once I discovered sport climbing, I just went boom through the grades. You know, I climbed my first sport route at about 24.

a 7C +, redpointed it in a day. Couldn't believe I'd done it. It was like, whoa, that was so cool. Like, wow. And was this coming from the background of maybe climbing 7A before? Was that literally the first ever? It was the first redpoint I ever did. I had redpointed a few bits, but for argument's sake, I hadn't really done anything. But with my first redpoint, so I tried to onsite it, knew I wouldn't do it, fell off.

Red pointed under the guidance of some youngster at the crack and was like, my God, that was flipping incredible. Like I was so in the zone. Like I wasn't scared even. I knew where all the holes were and I floored through it and what a buzz seven C plus. And I remember thinking, wow, I think I can climb harder than that. And then it did take me a couple of years before I did my first grade eight because I was traveling and working and whatever. Did my first grade eight at 25, I believe. It was actually eight B my first grade eight.

So that was 13 D in US grades. In US numbers. Which probably will surprise people like, what? And then, so that was, I was 25 then, and then at 26 I'd climbed 8B plus, and at 28 I'd climbed 9A plus. Okay, yeah. Quite a lot. And the first 8B, that was Zeke, is that right? It was Zeke, yes.

my climbing history is not so bad. Well done. Yeah. So first, first eight B was Zeke and then eight B plus was Mecca, I think. And then, then it was various eight C's and then I climbed mutation, which I gave nine A, but it's turned out to be nine A plus. So that was, you know, that's a big boost through the grades. And then once I hit the sort of nine A plus at 28, I felt as though I was consolidating a little bit, I climbed Northern Lights, which is nine A consolidating around that sort of like nine, sort of nine's nine A, nine A plus kind of grade.

So I rollercoasted along through that for a while. And then the next big change, which I really noticed, was I kind of re -found my sight for trad again. So I'd been an on -site trad climber, then I found sport climbing, and then I got back into more head -pointy trad. So treating... I wasn't expecting that answer, actually. really? No, no, not at all. Yeah, so I got back into climbing trad routes in sport style.

And my God, like it was like, wow, I can climb E9s and E10s and 11. Like, what is that? What is happening? So it was bringing the sport climbing fitness, but also the sport climbing mindset. That's probably more important. You know, that go for it. Like the total attack mode. Cause most trad climbers will not access that cause they're climbing on site. You can't really attack so much. It's always, you got some kind of like, you're reserved cause you don't know what's going to happen. Is that a good hold? Is that a wire coming up? I don't really know.

So you're always like, maybe I should be able to reverse this. But suddenly when you're treating it like a red point, boom, you're going for it. And wow, that was so exciting. That was great. So those two things I feel like were big steps, like huge steps in my climbing career. In terms of physical, the one thing which made the biggest difference for me was foot on campersing, which I've said many times before. It just made such a difference. There'll be loads of things which...

would, could make a difference to many people, probably to myself as well, but that was the one like, this is cool. I'll do this for a bit. wow, that's worked a lot. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that the whole foot on campers thing, because I feel like it was quite high up in the awareness of the public, maybe five years ago, before that, like, you know, you were talking about a lot. I was talking about a lot.

And there was just, it was that sort of Sheffield training scene was quite aware of that as being a technique and a methodology. But it's interesting. I have noticed less sort of appreciation and awareness for that particular endurance, power endurance building methodology. Well, I mean, these things go in and out of phases, but it's really nice to hear you say, no, this was the big thing. And for us to not forget that just because something isn't talked about right now, it doesn't mean that it's not very effective.

So it's very effective, but let's put that in perspective a little bit as well in terms of how good that training tool is relative to other training tools. So when I, the reason why it works so well for me is because I, it's, campersing kind of hadn't been around very long. There was no, at that time there was no bouldering walls. There was no circuit boards. So all there was in terms of endurance training was going out climbing or maybe some sort of like a natural brick wall.

around the corner or something. Yeah, with a little bit of roof over it to keep it dry. Yeah, something like that. So there was no real endurance training. Campusing had been around for a while. I'd seen a campus board, I'd tried campusing, I couldn't do it. It was just totally impossible. Like, I could barely hang on the holds. But I looked at it and thought, so when I go climbing, it's all about getting your weight on your feet. And then you do that for a bit and then you keep on going and then you fall off because you're really pumped. So campusing isn't going to help with that. I can see it's going to be good for power. But in terms of that...

really deep pump, how about if you just put your feet on? So yes, boom, we've got this great training tool. Now these days there's loads of really good ways to gain power endurance. So it's not like it's the one thing, but back then for me that was what was there. There wasn't any other way of doing it. So that's why it works so well. And it's pretty good to be honest. It's good because you can do it after you've done some other training or when you can't be bothered to do any training, you know, you can just do half an hour of that. I think it's a winner.

It definitely worked for me then. I noticed, I built it in my bedroom. It's like crappy bed seat. It was like tiny. And in the corner, I had this foot -on -campusing thing. And after I'd been out to Raven's Tour or Malham or somewhere like that, where I was aware that I'd spent the whole day hanging on the rope, doing like three moves in a row because it was desperate. And then be like, I can't do any more climbing now because my fingers are knackered and my body's broken.

I'd be like, well, I didn't get pumped at all. I didn't get pumped last week either, or the week before. Like, how am I supposed to have any kind of power endurance when I'm just basically bowled around a rope? I know, I'll do this foot -on -campusing in my crappy bed set for 20 minutes. And then a year later, my strength was power endurance and it has remained so. So they gave one year of foot -on -campusing. Steve McClure says it's...

fixed his power endurance forever. So I don't think how, I mean, I've never been in an unfit climate. I think I've always relied to some extent on endurance and power endurance. I've never relied on my strength and my sort of build is that, is oriented in that direction anyway. But I just noticed that, I just noticed I could get really pumped and keep on getting more pumped. That was a new thing. Like I definitely noticed the difference between

getting pumped and like, whoa, I'm getting really pumped now I'm off to like, I'm getting really pumped, but that's okay. I can still hang on a bit longer. And I'll tell you something, it makes a big difference on a trad route. When you're hanging on a small hole, filling a wire in and you think, I'm getting quite pumped now, but that's okay. I've got definitely a few more seconds to put that wire in as opposed to like, shit, I'm gonna die immediately. That's usually what you think. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had this sort of.

fact and notice psychologically over the years when I've done a bit more soloing and I've gone and done something and the pump starts to build up when I'm soloing. And it's really interesting, the sort of psychological difference. Cause I would say I'm quite comfortable in that pump zone. I've done plenty of training in that and I feel like it's a sort of a strength. But when you then move into the soloing zone, I go, whoa, I feel like now the pump's just building up.

even faster than it was before because I'm starting to panic over the fact that this is not cool to be getting pumped while soloing. This is not the place to do it. And then I made this recognition of, there's still actually quite a strong psychological aspect within the pump factor and how you can operate within it and how much you panic about it. How much you feel calm. Yeah. So I often use this analogy, which apologies to everybody who's heard this analogy before. It's similar to if you, you've had a car, you've had it for years, you know that car really well, driving down the motorway.

the red light goes on for your petrol gauge. It's all right. You've got at least 20 miles, probably 25 miles. You know your car, you've had it for years. It doesn't mean anything. You know there's a petrol station coming up, no problem at all. You borrow your mate's car, the red light comes on. my God, I don't know how long I've got left. I'm gonna run out of petrol and be stranded. So if you know, it's fine. So it's a bit like, you know, your forearms say, red lights come on. You know, you're 65 % pumped. That's all right. That holds okay. The next one looks all right as well.

It's no need to be worried, no problem. It's all right. But when you don't understand your energy systems of the forum, you don't know what's gonna happen next, panic for sure, especially if you're soloing. Yeah, yeah. And I think for, in terms of people that we know as friends and people that we've either tried to train or recommend what to do about this factor over the years, I have always felt like it was just spend more time in that zone.

in your general climbing life, whether it's on routes or from a training perspective, and you just get more experienced with it. Yeah, yeah. That's a big part of it. It is a massive part. I don't think you can really sidestep it at all. No, no, I don't think so. You can't trick it. Yeah. Not really. I mean, there's been more and less efficient ways of training the energy systems, but at the end of the day, there's no quick fix, I don't think, not that I know of anyway. No, I don't know one either. I wish there was. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. So looking outside of your own climbing progression and the grades and things like that, and we look outwards to the industry as a whole and the other professional athletes and climbing and working alongside those over a long period of time. What is your view on what are the big factors which you feel like have pushed climbing grades on over

the last few decades, what are the, because you've got your own things that were like, the quantum leaps there. But do you feel like those have matched up within what's been going on in the industry as a whole or are there other factors that you think are important? I mean, there's things which have definitely had a huge influence. I suppose the biggest thing which pushed standards forward has probably got to be the battery operated power drill.

That's probably made the biggest difference to be honest, because everything was trad climbing and then suddenly sport climbing came along. I made a monumental difference to what could be climbed. And that's where that's while back though, that's like 84. So most people can't relate to that at all. But I remember that happening and seeing how the sport climbing wave progressed over us. It was humongous. And the next thing was the, the appearance of bouldering. So bouldering wasn't a thing really.

You know, it was, we were doing it, but it wasn't regarded as a climbing activity in its own right. And then suddenly it was mainstream and people got strong. And I mean, you'll know as well as I do, if you want to climb hard routes, now you have to boulder. You have to boulder because the moves are hard. And when boulding became very popular and people started doing a lot of it, I think the, the, the, the hard moves on the routes suddenly it went up.

It wasn't all about just hanging on. It was about punching out hard moves. So I'd say those two things in terms of actual climbing have made the biggest difference from what I see anyway. And regarding like the industry, obviously the industry rolled with it a little bit. So indoor walls started to appear that were like sport climbing and then bouldering walls appeared which were like bouldering. So the industry is kind of like, yeah, yeah, we're gonna make things that the climbers wanna do and that's gonna aid and

push the sport forward. I'd say that's the things that have made the biggest difference. Obviously you've got all the equipment and the kit. Some things make a big difference. Some sort of slightly change over the years, you know, like a carabiner's a carabiner. They've got better. There's no doubt about it, but I wouldn't say there's been like step changes. And you know, knee pads, they're great aren't they? I like knee pads. There's obviously always going to be a war in like, no, it's, you know, knee pads, they changed the game.

That's great. It's like an extra whole movement system going on when you're climbing. There's nothing better than a knee bar going in. Brilliant. It's just added to the fun. No, I mean, I totally agree. And it's quite fascinating. And I've got to be careful not to tangent here too much. But yes, sorry. It's funny. The movement styles over. I want to say that for a second, the last 10 years, but it is longer because there's places like rifle that have had.

you know, kneebar specialization for a very long time. But the way in which people move around the kneebar as such and these very particular ways of climbing. And we both know climbers who really specialize in that area. And it's fascinating watching them climb and project and seeing how differently they climb to other climbers. And it's a whole other different way of climbing again. Yes, it is, it is. And I mean, some people do push back against it. They don't like...

I mean, I suppose that you can see some pushback maybe, you know, when somebody climbs some route and it's cutting edge and it's their finest effort ever and then somebody knee -baps the way up there and rests all the way and finds it not very hard. So, because people just forget, they don't go, yeah, but when songs I didn't hear was like that, they just go, it's like this now. And that person might go, remember me when I did this. But I mean, who cares anyway at the end of the day.

I just think it's great. I just love the way it can evolve in that way. It's brilliant. I just hope nobody invents some kind of sucker things on the end of your fingers and you can just hang on to anything with no effort. That would change the game a bit in the wrong way. I know, yeah. I mean, there's always going to be a line with these things, isn't there? Yeah, yeah. But then where's the line? Because people would say, obviously years ago people said, well, sticky rubber, that's cheating. Then it was cams, they changed the game. I did quietus yesterday at Stanage.

and how hard is that? Like without any cams as well. God, when Joe Brown did that, those boys were incredible. Anyway, so, you know, things change the game and there'll be people that say that you've changed it to make it not what it used to be. But, you know, things evolve all the time. I think you've just got to roll with it. I mean, it's just a bit of fun at the end of the day, isn't it? It is really, yeah. Yeah. What do you think of the training approaches or tools that have?

changed the climbing grade the most that you've seen over the years or witnessed? The actual tools themselves? Yeah, either the physical tools like, for example, a campus board or just an approach. And I think I'm coming to this with the reference of you know very well the professional climbing community and you've witnessed what those people have done over the last 10, 20 years plus.

what your perspective is on. So that's interesting because it varies depending on what you want to do with your climbing. And so I would say, I might get in trouble for saying this, but I would say what the climbers were doing 30 years ago was pretty good for sport climbing on the whole. But it maybe wasn't very good, it was rubbish for...

modern indoor climbing and it might not have been so good for like brute bouldering but it was pretty good for sport climbing and if you look at what people like Ben and Jerry were doing they were doing well with sport climbing so that was just like climbing a lot, fingery stuff and endurance based stuff but it there was very little of the real power the real compression that's sort of more modern style so we've got a lot more of that now which is really helping

So things have come a long way and things have moved forward considerably. But what we were doing, what they were doing, I won't say we, it doesn't include me, what they were doing back then I think was fairly forward thinking. You know, there's like crimpy cellars in the Sheffield and all that sort of stuff. That was appropriate. Yeah, I very much agree. I think they'd looked at what they wanted to do. They want to climb whatever at Ravenstor or whatever at Malham and it's got some...

Rubbishly small handle. It's got some bad footholds. It's gonna take a minute and a half to climb it I should be in that zone. So that's what they did and those routes are still the same. They still require the same Training to get up them. But now obviously we've got like tons of bouldering which is wide compression style climbing and people weren't doing so much of that then Yeah, yes, it's definitely changed quite a bit. I suppose the key to training and it being successful is

is to just look at what you're trying to do and try and at least replicate to some extent what you're trying to do. Because if you're trying to do something and your training is completely different, it won't help that much. It's not rocket science really, is it? No, I mean, I think you've just basically encapsulated the entire approach of what we do at Lattice, which is to go, what is it that you're trying to do? And then make sure there's a really good match up with the training and preparation to the thing.

that you're trying to do at the end. Yeah, that's it in a nutshell. That's it, folks. That's what you need to do. We should just snip that for 30 seconds and just repeatedly put it on Instagram and YouTube for the next 10 years. It's not easy to do that, though. It's quite hard to understand to some extent what you really want to do. That can be quite hard in the first place. And then if you finally do manage to understand it, you've got to have a way of...

Replicating that to some extent, you know, you don't live near an indoor facility. That's tricky. We don't live near any outdoor climbing That's tricky as well, you know, if you've you very time starved, it's not easy to make you know the junction between What you need to do? And what you're actually doing it's not as easy as what it might first appear to be no I feel for people that have have got like a long -term project say in the peak, but they live in London

and their local wall is all massive volumes and jumps between volumes. You know, that's going to be hard for them to replicate what they need. Yeah. I mean, it's exactly why I train specifically 90 % of my time at one wall in Sheffield, because it represents what I want to do when I go climbing outside. And I very much choose that. I love the other walls. And I think they're really cool. And I've kind of, it sucks sometimes because my friends go there more, but I know what replicates, or, you know, transfers across into my climbing. So I just have to.

stick with it. Yeah and the other problem of course is that as climbers we like to do loads of different things. Yeah. There might not be, it's like right after I finish this project here which is like a five moon bullet problem I want to try that project over there which is like a 50 meter long trad endurance route so different so that's why I mean that's the beauty of climbing is that you can you know bring loads of things together but ultimately we do need to focus on what we feel we really want to.

succeeding, you know, we have a like, that's what I really want to do. And the other stuff, yeah, I mean, it's good to be good at that. But, you know, if I'm not so good at it, it doesn't really matter that much, but this is where I want to perform. And then you need to just make sure you're training in the right zone. Yeah. Yeah. So last question I have, and it kind of looks towards the future is what do you feel is either the approach or tools that

are still kind of lacking or need work or development in terms of climbing that hold us back from the next steps. Wow, what's holding us back from the next step? What are your feelings over? That's a bit of a question, isn't it? Flipping heck. I'm just trying to think of myself here. What's holding me back? I think what has held me back is...

the understanding of my sort of like body and the areas of weakness that I may have, which I don't know about. So if we just sort of like swing back to the question we've just had about like what you need to look at your projects and work out what you need to do to get up that project, you could look at it very simplicity and go, right, well, yeah, it's got some small holes and I get pumped on it. So I need to train on small holes.

for two minutes getting pumped. But it might be that, actually do you know what? Your shoulders are weak. That's what's holding you back. Or maybe it's, you know, your feet are weak. You know, there's a whole body going on here and it's a whole chain. And I think personally, my understanding of the chain, and I'm sure of it even now, has been poor, to say the least. And I think in order to progress, and this is, you know, talking about the cutting edge as well.

the top climbers will, and some of them will have this already, but a lot of them won't have access to like top quality trainers and coaches who do understand all that. Cause we're a young sport as well. How many top coaches know that anyway? You know, I mean, I spend a lot of time coaching people. I'm not the expert in all that stuff. And I think that's my weakness. In fact, as a total specific thing, my lack of crimp strength at the moment,

I'm not very good at crimps and I don't think I ever have been either really. My pure brute crimp strength I think is rubbish because I've got weak shoulders. I don't think it's because I've got wet fingers and it's taken me a while to sort of understand that and I'm thinking now wow I don't need to hang on a fingerboard on tiny edges I need to get my shoulders strong and you know I need someone to tell me that. Yeah it takes a while to realize that. Yeah so I'm realizing it now but

Somebody could maybe told me that years ago and go, yeah, your shoulders are feeble, mate. So that I think will be certainly for the maybe not for the cutting edge, who might have access to that already, but for the masses that are operating just below cutting edge, having access to that, that information, I think will be game changing because we've got facility wise. It's we've got plenty of that at the moment. So I don't think we're lacking facilities. It might require a bit of imagination to.

to use your facility in the right way. But yeah, education maybe is the cutting edge part of it. What do you think? Do you have an opinion? Yeah. I mean, you're helping, you're doing it. You're a Mr. Lattice. Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with those points at all. I think they're, yeah, they are really relevant and those are a big part of the equation. I feel like now in terms of the next steps forward, it has to be,

has to also be coupled with enough of the top end climbing population having access to non -distracted time for 10 years. Because I think, like you said about actual training support, really good coaches with good knowledge in with that, you also need to be able to give 5 ,000, 10 ,000, 20 ,000 climbers across the world 10 years of undistracted time.

where they're not having to study for their professional qualifications. They're not having to hold down a job for 25 hours a week to somehow support their professional climbing career. They're not having to do all the other things that kind of pull us out of the time to be able to really focus on actually doing good quality work, which means that we use the knowledge that we have in terms of how to get good. Because climbing is such a time intensive thing, because it's a really complex sport.

So you can do all the training, which also takes loads of time, but you also need to practise loads. So yes, I mean, I feel like I'm a better climber now, technically than I've ever been, without a doubt. And I'm still getting better. I still notice like, Ooh, that's new. I'm doing that. That's a cool thing. So yes, time is for sure super important. And that's going to, whether we have enough athletes with access to that level of time.

I guess will depend on the size of the sport and the money that can flow into the sport. And I don't think we're there yet. Will we ever get there? I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of high profile sports out there where the people that are at the top of the game have full -time jobs. You know, there's loads of them. People that go to the Olympics that work all the time. Okay, so you've got footballers who get to train a lot. They are incredible.

whether we'll have a lot of climbers that have access to that kind of time. I don't know. I don't know. It's certainly, I feel like I've had a lot of time on rock, but I've had to balance it with, you know, full -time job, pretty much whole my whole life, family, kids, all of it. And would I have been better with just climbing? I don't know. I'd have been bored. Yeah, that is, that's a whole thing as well. This is something that me and Pete often talk about.

because we both have normal -ish careers as such and we don't spend all of our time climbing and we both go, I think we'd just go absolutely mad if we just did full -time pro climber. But I still think objectively I'd be a better climber if I had done that. Might have been demotivated or bored or, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. It's difficult to say. Yeah, it is interesting. I think one of the things I still love about climbing at the moment is that most of the...

Most of the really top -end climbers are just normal people. They're just normal people that have got kind of jobs, got families. They're just normal people and that I think is great. And the fact that you can be at the crag with someone who's a relative beginner and someone who is like the best, literally in the world, and everyone's having the same thing. They're all having the same challenge and they're all kind of the same. You're not gonna be...

feeling like, whoa, like I'm outclassed here. There's a bunch of like top end climbers doing their thing. Whether if some, if the society could support loads of climbers that just climbed, I think it might separate that from the masses as it were. You know, like footballers, footballers, you know, they're stars. They're like, they're bigger stars than film stars. They're like up on pedestals. And would that happen when climbing? Maybe, I don't know. Yeah, well, I guess we'll.

We'll find out in the future. Well Steve, it's been amazing having you back on the podcast again. And as always, I always really like hearing your perspectives on everything. And it's nice to be able to talk to someone who's spent, yeah, like likewise, all of their adult life in the climbing industry and so having that back and forth. So yeah, thanks for coming in and chatting again. Always a pleasure.